Re: [Chrysler300] A/C Question

[<smopar@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

R134 still has some future, particularly here in the U.S.   The reason for wanting to change is due to worldwide concern over global warming.  I really do not want to debate the merits of the science as that is not the reason to write this note nor is it directly germane to this board.  I just want to indicate that Europe and many other nations are concerned and a/c refrigerants are deemed to be a significant contributor to the effect.  In the U.S., the auto industry is arguing that more leak tight 134A systems are the way to go for the future and are designing improved systems to be implemented soon.  On the other hand, other non U.S. manufacturers are either proposing to move to 152A refrigerant or go directly to the use of CO2 itself (Mercedes Benz is a large proponent and was almost going to offer it on the S class cars next year, but decided to delay that decision) as a refrigerant (yes, the gas most linked to global warming, CO2, is also the refrigerant of choice by many around the world for eliminating the negative effects of refrigerants - all greenhouse gases are compared to CO2 in terms of "global warming potential" or GWP.  CO2 has a value of "1", whereas R152A has a GWP of around 150 and 134A has a potential around 1200, or about an order of magnitude greater than 152A if I recall the numbers correctly).  Europe is leading the charge (no pun intended) to lower GWP refrigerants.  Many in Europe want to ban all but CO2, but the recent European Union determination is that they will also allow 152A for a while longer.  One of the problems with 152A is that it is mildly flammable (it is basically the stuff used as propellants in spray cans or computer board cleaners), but industry seems to have ways to minimize any real threat.  But 152 is a little more efficient than 134 in cooling the vehicle.  CO2 is also about as efficient as 152 as well.  The difficulty with CO2 as a refrigerant is that it easily leaks though the best seals and might require recharging every couple of years.  But seal technology might improve.  CO2 systems also operate at much higher pressures than either 134 or 152, causing servicing concerns and the need for more robust components that might add weight to the vehicle.  No one knows yet where things will come out.  But it does seem to me that 134 is on its way out and that CO2 systems are the eventual goal.  I recently drove a Jeep Liberty prototype for a couple of days prepared by Modine that had a CO2 air conditioning system, and it worked just fine (despite the high pressures, the compressor was tiny).  All of this portends a lot of change for the service industry yet to come, and their task even now is daunting as Warren has described well, given all the mixtures of various concoctions out there.  Concerning our 300s, I personally will stay with R12 in my cars because the higher operating pressure of 134A exceeds the real capability of the old RV2 compressor shaft seal.  If you use 134 in these older systems, plan on more frequent recharging and slightly less cooling capability given that the original heat exchangers were sized for R12.  But that is basically what is happening.  Industry will eventually settle on one variant, since they do not want to design multiple systems for use worldwide because of the cost.
Steve Albu

---- Warren Anderson <wranderson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > The only R12 available today IS RECLAIMED from systems removed from
> > service.  Manufacturing was halted several years ago.
> >
> > Some how the problems and ban on R134 got by me.  What happened?
> >
> > Minnesota Marshall
> > Red G,  27 & 28 Dodge Brothers.
> 
> 
> Some good time could be spent checking out very good information regarding
> vehicle, mobile A/C refrigerants on the MACS site and EPA site (Google).
> 
> You will find that R12 can still be sold and used in the USA. R134 can still
> be used also. R134 is not banned, is still in production but is just not
> desireable and will soon be obsolete. There are recent represented
> production capacity problems ( I see as real and manufactured) with R134A .
> Check the sites. These sites have the best FACTS available.
> 
> No doubt, there are sources for recycled R12. We stock, sell and can still
> readily purchase VIRGIN R12.
> 
> We recycle R12 on site as professional shops must do and then use the
> recycled product for leak testing systems that come in 'flat'. We then
> remove the test charge R12 back into our recycler. And, as side information,
> a good on site recycler will provide clean, dry, 100%  useable R12  that
> some have tested and found to have less non combustible gas (air) than some
> virgin products. And, before we tackle refrigeration system repairs in our
> shop we must test the refrigerant in the system to make sure that what's in
> there is only R12 or only R134A and not a blend.
> 
> Technical data will support that R12 is a very good refrigerant for mobile
> systems. Performance claims made by manufacturers/marketers of blend
> products do not stand up under technical scrutiny. This can be checked out
> on MACS site. There are many reasons why we do not support the use of blends
> but one outstanding reason would be that  blend constituants bleed off (leak
> out) at different rates leaving a system with some strange concoction in it.
> Some have propane and butane which can go poof! Even R134A is explosive when
> mixed with appropriate amount of air under pressure.
> 
> Personally, I feel the whole Montreal Protocol implementation program has
> many serious faults. Doesn't matter what I think however, so I either step
> up to the program or step out and so far we have been staying with the
> program and continue to spend many dollars buying new equipment in order to
> stay with it.
> 
> Warren Anderson
> Sedona,AZ
> 
> 
> 
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>  
> 
> 



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