OK - your second link to Discount Tire best explains it - their sole
design purpose is alignment before torquing the wheels - they serve
no purpose relative to loads.
But they may also serve another function that I had not thought of
on wheels using lug bolts. I had a Volvo wagon for a time that used
lug bolts and now that I remember it was always a pain hanging the
wheels before you got a bolt started. Do you remember the old
pre-1960s cars that had lug bolts with a pin and an extra hole in
wheel for similar purpose.
The youtube also illustrates the purpose but the aftermarket wheels
he is putting on scare me a lot more due to edge distance between
center hole and lug holes and the appearance that lug holes appear
to be loose tolerance.
As to inability of cast wheels to center due to fragility - remember
that all the load is going thru the lug nuts (or bolts) creating
preload and hence friction - so that does not wash. And most use
steel tapered inserts anyway.
I would not be concerned about any of the OE wheels or high quality
wheels made to reasonable tolerances for your application - if
tapered seat lugnuts, they would center wheel and if there was a
conflict, the nylon would lose the battle and deform anyway. If you
are having wheels made, I would have ID bored out to match OE
application diameter including tapers if any - it just makes sense.
But the youtube brings up a totally different point - the use of
universal fit wheels - here I would be very careful with or without
hubcentric adapters.
I never liked the slotted lug holes that allowed one wheel to "fit"
both Ford/Chrysler 4.5 inch and GM 4.75 inch applications. And I'm
not sure I like the wheels with dual bolt patterns - though I can't
give you a specific reason other than to say look at hub bore and
make sure there is a reasonable amount of material between edge of
lug hole and hub ID.
The illustration in Discount Tires explanation using a 3 to 4 mm
thick adapter in a high quality wheel would not bother me but the
use of a 3/8 inch +/- thick adapter to accomodate a grossly oversize
wheel ID as it appears in the youtube example would definitely
bother me. The edge distance between the inside diameter and the
bolt hole screams at me.
On 1/5/2014 10:08 PM, Michael Moore
wrote:
OK Ed,
1. I THINK I understand what this is about. I told you
wrong, it’s American Racing, not classics.
2. Here are a couple of ads.
3. But here is an understandable explanation of whats
going on.
4. I am guessing that modern die cast aluminum wheels
can not be made like lug centric because the nature of the
conical seat of the lug nut/bolt would crack the brittle
aluminum. Steel is much tougher. It also may be related to
use of impact wrenches. So perhaps then manufacturing
tolerances of a standard clearance hoe etc. might allow the
wheel to get mounted eccentrically. The attachment above
makes the point that once the wheel is installed, the job of
the hub centric ring is done-noload is transferred through
it. It is just a centering tool.
That’s wheat I think is going on.
Mike Moore
300H
I pulled up American
Classic site and did not find anything about Adapters -
where did you find that info?
Nor did I find info on wheels on their site? Where did the
initial info come from? Maybe a call to a salesperson?
Maybe not even related directly to American Classic Tires.
Maybe the first poster got it wrong.
On 1/5/2014 7:23 PM, Michael
Moore wrote:
Lugcentric
I can understand-and that's really all I care about as I
don't plan on using non-stock rims. It is strange that
American Classic would bring that up to someone using
stock steel rims.
Mike Moore
300H
I just
reread the original post - they are recommending
Lugcentric - not Hubcentric.
That seems to make even less sense - I agree
with the use of shouldered lug nuts or tapered
lug nuts which effectively dominates as a load
path in either case.
Assuming that is the definition of Lugcentric,
virtually everything would be Lugcentric unless
center ID is precisely machined to match raised
area on center of hub - and my experience is
that was not the default - and even then the
load path is the same.
On 1/5/2014 5:57
PM, Edward Mills Antique Tractors wrote:
I'm
talking 1984-85 timeframe when we were playing
with them.
I'm thinking some of the newer OE wheels may
be effectively hub centric but also lug
centric as they mostly use tapered seat
lugnuts - as long as everything is concentric
I see no issues. I know there have been times
when I had problems registering an aluminum
wheel on center due to tight fit (especially
if you get any trash inbetween but that an
issue of not paying enough attention) but I
don't ever recall such an issue with OE steel
wheels.
Other option that was common on early aluminum
and mag wheels with thick centers and
cylindrical holes was shouldered lug nuts with
large washers for purpose of distributing load
into softer aluminum and preventing
misalignment of early mag wheels to lugs. We
swapped over to tapered steel inserts and
standard 1/2-20 tapered lug nuts in the BBS
wheels as early as 1978 - much easier to
change a tire if you had to in a pit stop. But
OE mags used shouldered lug nuts at least to
late 1980's - well into radial tires which
were dominant by mid 1970s.
In either case the lug nuts and the preload in
them are what take the load - remember the
slotted lug holes for universal fit of some of
the cheaper mags to fit both 4.5 Ford/Chrysler
and 4.75 GM bolt patterns. The best the
hubcentric feature would do is set up
centering before you torque. Can't see how it
would significantly affect load path or why
radials would be more sensitive - may be just
a pre-excuse in case there are tire problems.
I know a tire guy who put Ford Aluminum wheels
on a Jeep Cherokee - he had to bore our the
centers of the Ford wheels to make them fit
over hubs. Otherwise no issues but personally
I would not have done it.
On 1/5/2014 4:37
PM, Michael Moore wrote:
Ed,
Has any production car ever used hub
centric wheels?
I just read this and this (below) and
the author apparently does not understand
fasteners, how they work, how a preloeaded
bolt works, and in general is spouting a
bunch of malarky which any engineer can
spot in a short read of this piece.
I really think this is something new to
sell and has no relationship to our cars.
I would need to see some numbers on a free
body diagram to believe any of this.
Mike Moore
Thanks, Mike Moore
300H
Not
sure I understand the
benefit of Hubcentric - in
reality, most wheels center
on lugs which are further
from center and hence better
able to resist any movement
as long as they are
concentric.
To be Hubcentric, you must
have 2 things - first hub
must have a raised surface
to register rim and second,
rim ID must be precisely
correct diameter for that
specific hub. Many drum
brake applications do not
have a surface raised to
register on. Further, many
wheels have slightly
oversized and/or loose
tolerance to accommodate
multiple applications - i.e.
the ability to swap
aftermarket wheels for both
Ford & Chrysler
application.
We had option to use
Hubcentric Momo wheels years
back while racing - you had
an oversized center on wheel
and used a set of
application specific
adapters which precisely
matched ID of wheel and OD
of the specific car. Never
found any real benefit so we
did not use after first few
uses. Principal benefit
seemed to be precision in
centering with respect to
any potential out-of-round
of the mounted assembly. No
real benefit as to side
loads which were the
predominant issue on race
car as we never had any
concentricity issue with
Momo or BBS wheels with race
tires.
I would suspect this
recommendation is due to
some of the balance issues
which have been reported
with some replica sizes and
low production specialty
tires.
I would further note that
belted tires (both radial
and bias-belted) are
particularly sensitive to
belt alignment and
manufacturing tolerances. In
1968/69 when bias belted
tires became popular, only
Goodyear had them and in
their haste to catch up,
several of the other big5
(Goodyear, Firestone,
Goodrich, General, and
Uniroyal) had issues with
their first generation
tires. When customers
complained about balance, we
were instructed to check
with a radial runout gage
and if more than a number
which I now forget, they
were replaced no charge. By
about 1970, the production
tolerance issues were sorted
out.
On
1/4/2014 8:07 PM, Ryan Hill
wrote:
Hub centric
uses the actual hub to
center the wheel; the
hole in the center of
the wheel fits snugly
over the hub. Lug
centric wheels rely on
the lugs only.
Sent from my iPhone
>American
Classic Tires
recommends
"lug centric"
wheels rather
than the
original "hub
centric"
wheels that
may flex with
radials.
Can you
explain the
difference ?
Ron
-----
Original
Message -----
Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2014 4:02 PM
Subject: [Chrysler300] New American Classic
Tires
Hi
To All &
Happy New
Year,
Just opened
the latest
Hemmings MN
& Coker is
advertising a
new series of
American
Classic radial
WWW tires that
have bias ply
look profiles.
The American
Classic Tire
website does
not show them
as of yet.
They seem to
be geared for
Cadillacs,
thunderbirds
&
Corvettes.
Based on carnut.com "as built" specs for '55-'65 300s,
C-300, 300-B
& 300-G
owners may
benefit from
the 800:R15
tires if a 3
1/4" WWW works
for you.
As with
American
Classic
235/75R14
&
235/75R15
radial tires,
the white wall
is an integral
part of the
tire. The 14"
75 series
tires are for
1955-1960
unless owners
opt for 15"
wheels and
tires.
Diamond
Classic has S
rated new
Michelin
235/75R15
tires that
they will put
what ever size
WW you want.
They also
promise the
235/75R14"
tires soon by
their own
production.
BTW, I have
the 15"
Michelin tires
from Diamond
Back mounted
on Stockton
15" wheels
with the
original 300-F
hubcaps. They
are great and
exceed all
expectations.
One tire did
develop "bead
bubbling" of
the white wall
where it
sealed to the
rim. I had to
pay shipping
one way for a
replacement
WW. They did
give me some
grief since it
they were over
1 year old.
American
Classic Tires
recommends
"lug centric"
wheels rather
than the
original "hub
centric"
wheels that
may flex with
radials.
Stockton Wheel
will make up
14" modern
"lug centric"
replacement
wheels or 15"
that will
accept 14" hub
caps for
radial tires.
They are for
1957-60 and
1962-65. Their
15" wheels do
not match 1961
300-G
perforated
wheels. They
will not fit
1955-56.
Some narrow
white walls
are currently
still
available for
300-H and up.
All of this
comes at a
price! Hope
Santa was good
to you.
300,ly,
Tony Rinaldi
300-F Conv't
Sent from
Yahoo Mail for
iPhone |
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