RE: [Chrysler300] That's Racin'

Australia obvoiusly aint America.USA, but I was told with engines here in late 40s and early 50s it was standard practice for Chrysler to put the better engines in the dearer cars, the worst in the cheaper - this I do not know if this decided I think when engine finshed, or by what they found and had to do building it.

Ford here early on put new blocks outside to cure before machining, do not know about Chrysler.
And the other one/tale I heard is best gap and fit bodies for cars then were chosen be painted what color by the gaps they had - do not know if that meant white/black/red? got poorest, and metallics got best?!

Pity more was not documented re a lot of what went on, but it obvious building cars was a money thing, not a history reference for collectors. And near world wide, after a car becomes colectable around 30yrs old, even by then, it often too late to find out most/much?!,

Christopher in Australia - Sat night at 1st Summer Sat night Monthly Cruise, a red 300B convertible with US California personalised plate that was rippoff of "Phantom" turned up among the near 700 cars that were at midway stop (due to combining with 'Street Machine Run' there) Car was near 300Bly correct, will send pics to Clubman Bob so he may put up somewhere - car I pretty sure known in US before here, but it might interest those 300lovers who aint seen a 300B convert, even if this one a fake/Fantom?!

To: mmoore8425@xxxxxxx
CC: moparfan@xxxxxxxxxx; chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: 1970hurst@xxxxxxxxx
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 13:58:54 -0600
Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] That's Racin'

I had a absolutely wonderful blueprinted Hemi engine.
From an ad in the Washington Post, I bought a Li'l Deuce Coupe (1932 5 window) with a 331 Hemi, Cad-LaSalle tranny, and a Mercury rear.

The two guys I bought it from had built it as their thesis at McPherson Collage, in Kansas. This was a tool and die makers tech school then, I think and now teaches many things, including Automotive.
Chasing Classic Cars did a show about them last year. check it out here:
http://www.mcpherson.edu/autorestoration/

When they built the engine, each and every part was brought to Chrysler Specs, using the Actual Chrysler Blueprints supplied by Chrysler.

This engine was the smoothest engine I've ever had. It would idle @ 150-200 rpm and instantly rev up with no stumble.

You could literately watch each fan blade go by from the Drivers seat while idling.

Massive Torque, I could pull up to a stop sign with out putting in the clutch and just as the engine would begin to stall, nail it and pull right away, in 2nd gear.

The engine, of course had the bell housing snout, so there were few choices for trans. adapters, They took a Ford trans., sliced off the front of the case, drilled and tapped it to fit both the block and Cad-LaSalle trans.

The entire car weighed 1800 lbs, with the engine weighing about 800 of those pounds. A real fun beast to drive, and I often used it to commute into my job in Washington, DC.

The local hot rod club at the drive-in would ask why I didn't put on some carburation, I told them that when any of them could beat me, I'd replace the 2 bbl that was stock.

When I bought the car (For $600.00) it came with a 671 GMC Supercharger, including the needed parts to install, Drive belt/pulleys, manifold and 2 4's. It may have included a Cam, too long ago now. We stored these parts under our bed in the apartment we lived in at the time. Jo Ann will tell you that she slept in a Supercharged bed. I never felt the need to install them, and if I had the carbs would have been higher than the roof and blocked a lot of my vision. It was chopped, channeled, with a "Z"'ed frame. It wasn't 4 feet high.

Eventually, I sold it back to them and have no idea what happened to it since.

God, I MISS that car!

Ray in Mena

On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 9:47 AM, Michael Moore <mmoore8425@xxxxxxx> wrote:

I recall reading an article in one of the Chyrsler car clubs I belong to about a batch of Imperial engines.

There was apparently a VIP requirement (possibly Presidential and staff limos?) for engnes and Chrysler wanted them to be extraordinarily smooth and quiet.

The article said the engines were essentially blueprinted, by selecting parts in many cases, to ensure the engines were balanced in every reasonable way in order to be smooth.

The six (I?) engines were completed and ready to be installed. They somehow disappeared withoutmaking it to their VIP vehicle destination, being used instead for some other "production shortage". At the last minute, standard engines were used for the VIP engines. The point was that somewhere out there there were some Chrysler owners with very smooth engines.

My take-away from the article was that special attention was paid to Imperial engines at that time. I am guessing this was the 50's or early 60's.

Mike Moore

On Jan 11, 2014, at 7:05 PM, GARY RUNKEL <moparfan@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

In the mid 1980's I worked in the Engine Hot Test at Chrysler's Trenton Engine Plant. The old timers told me that the engines that passed the test the first time without needing any repairs were tagged as potential Imperial engines. These were not any kind of permanent stamping, just a tag on the rack holding the engines.

Nancy, the Imperials were assembled in their own plant on Warren Avenue from, I think, 1957 to 1966. This is actually in Dearborn, MI but the property abuts the Detroit border. Much of that plant is actually still standing but is now used for producing some kind of ethnic food products. Go to Google Maps (www.maps.google.com) and enter address "8505 Warren Avenue, Dearborn, MI" to see it.

When the production was moved to the Jefferson Road plant in Detroit, they may have had their own separate line separate from the other vehicles being produced there. Maybe Gil Cunningham can speak to that?

Gary Runkel

Canton, MI

I remember hearing something about picking only the best blocks for Imperials.
Don't know exactly when but I think it may have been in the late fifties that this was supposed to be done.
I do not know if it was true.

I do know that in the late fifties and the early sixties too Imperials were supposed to have been assembled on their own line
and only in Detroit. I think I even once heard that they were even given a brief road test before they left the factory.
Anyone know anything else about this?

Regards,

Nancy Kramer

At 06:26 PM 1/11/2014, Ray Jones wrote:

There are others that know more than I do about this, and maybe they will chime in here.
I recall hearing that the early Hemi blocks were cast, then put out in a field for a year to cure.
They were then brought in and machined. This made sure there would be no block distortion after machining.
I don't remember when this practice stopped, not sure if it held over into the 413 HP blocks or not.

Just the ramblings of on old mind...
Ray

On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 3:06 PM, Rich Barber <c300@xxxxxxx> wrote:

I had heard or read that, in 1955 anyway, the 300 blocks were cherry-picked after the cylinders were bored. If no porosity was present they might be sent to be made into 300 engines and stamped accordingly. If porosity was observed, they would be sleeved and put in New Yorkers. It’s entirely possible this same process was used to select Imperial blocks. Otherwise, structure and external cast-in numbers were the same. I suspect that practice might have continued for some time on an unofficial basis. If Chrysler had noted any block failures due to high performance cars, they might have beefed up all the blocks rather than establish a different production process just for the HP engines.

I also recall hearing that some MoPar HP engines were actually assembled on different lines and even by different organizations that were more used to building close-tolerance race engines.

C300K’ly,

Rich Barber

Brentwood, CA

1955 C-300; VIN: 3N551198; Engine stamped: 3NE551098. ’55-’58 hemi engines were individually serial numbered but the serial numbers rarely, if ever, matched the chassis VIN.

From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Michael Moore

Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2014 7:49 AM

To: therichardsonfamily@xxxxxxxxxxx

Cc: 300 Club

Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] Value of correct date block

Curious minds want to know:

What exactly is the dofference in the blocks which are HP and those whci are not? Is it simply inspection (as I understand Imperials once were)?

Mike Moore

300H

On Jan 11, 2014, at 7:45 AM, therichardsonfamily@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

oooops, I meant "V41" block............

From: therichardsonfamily@xxxxxxxxxxx

To: "300 Club" < chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2014 9:43:16 AM

Subject: Fwd: [Chrysler300] Value of correct date block

Group:

So, is it confirmed that all 1960 F's were not born with an engine stamp denoting "HP"? That certainly would make Shannon's search for a "date correct" block much easier - any 413 will do (dated appropriately). If that is the case, I agree that the added value is definitely worth the effort to find it.

And I keep my interest in the "A41" block out there.....

Dan Richardson

300L Family Heirloom

(w/ a '67 Imperial's 440 in it - funny thing is, I think my original 413 HP is running around Chicagoland in a white '67 Charger! Just can't find it!)

From: therichardsonfamily@xxxxxxxxxxx

To: LabLoverDC@xxxxxxx

Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 3:05:21 PM

Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] Value of correct date block

Shannon:

I have asked this same question - I have an L with a '67 440 in it. With my car, I am choosing not to stress out about it too much. A) - I don't have unlimited resources, and B) - an L is definitely the least prized of the Letter cars. Besides that, I'm not too sure how many "HP" blocks you can find out there.

Having said that, an F is much more valuable in general, even more so with the original motor but, with a "date correct" block (as long as it's disclosed) I can't imagine you detract from a "numbers matching" value too much. Just an observation and opinion. If you have the time, and patience, you may be able to uncover the right block.

If you are on a schedule that doesn't allow a year or two to look, perhaps you take a stab at it briefly, and then just move forward. Who knows, maybe a "V41" is the right date code for my early build '65 L and you have me as a customer for yours? Perhaps it would be in my best interest to help you look?

Good luck in whatever you choose, and keep my name in case you do want to sell the "V41" block.

Dan Richardson

300L Family Heirloom

From: LabLoverDC@xxxxxxx

To: chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 2:25:05 PM

Subject: [Chrysler300] Value of correct date block

Hello All--Thanks to the excellent information offered here, I've determined the block in our 300 F appears to be from 1964 (V41 HP). As nearly as we can tell, at some point prior to our owning the car, a short block was put in. It appears that everything else (ram induction, carbs, heads, etc.) are proper and presumably original to the car.

The engine is out of the car, and we are undertaking a complete re-build of it. My question is, does anyone have an opinion as to whether we should stick with the 1964 block we have, or try to find a 1960 P41 block, which of course would still not be original to the car but would be mostly correct from a date standpoint? Does that add significant value (enough to make it worth it to go through the expense and trouble of finding a '60 block)?

For a point of reference, we are doing a complete, sub-frame off restoration. While we're not necessarily trying for a concours job, especially with detailed correctness in things like wires, labels, batteries, etc., it will be a very high quality restoration, perhaps one step down from concours (at least, that's what we hope to end up with). The car itself is a black/tan convertible with factory air, and all of the options appear to be correct according to the build sheet if that helps.

I would welcome anyone's opinion on this subject.

Shannon

--
Ray Jones. Y'all come on down an see us. Ya hear?

--
Ray Jones. Y'all come on down an see us. Ya hear?

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