RE: More about [Chrysler300] J cylinder head exhaust seats plus questions

["'John Grady' jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [Chrysler300]" <Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Mike,

 

You set them cold to .026, or they were that way when opened? I thought you
did one side hot already, must be losing it ..glad you are doing this, very
important,!!---

 

it is just the sequence of what is happening,   is getting me lost .

 

If set hot to .026, you are saying it did not change? As you know, point is
how much it changes hot to cold ; if you subscribe to setting it .002-,003
loose,  to be sure (I do) I am hoping that might cover variability hot to
cold, so you can do cold to some # and be confident it will never close up
on you at high heats/loads.that hot to cold thing is key, but still have
doubts about the need to do all that, as how hot is hot or cold is cold? One
assumes say 68 cold, maybe 190 hot oil. .002 loose does nothing to
performance but .002 tight will possibly burn all the valves if hot enough.
There is a cold setting that works, it is just easier for cam guy to say, do
it hot,   so he does not have to figure all this out , then.

 

Agree,  Cometic gaskets very good; I was warned by other customers not to
use valve cover gaskets sent with a 4.0 JEEP engine just rebuilt ( S&J, in
Spokane..have bought 5-6 engines there, really good machining and quality
parts, good price, have had great luck long term with what they did-other
problems happened with "new parts" (below) they bought) .

 

Would not hesitate to do a  300 RB block  engine there.. They do thousands
of engines, not one or two like most small machine shops , will do what you
want if special parts. Have all the really big CNC engine machines to do it
right. Zero oil consumption, zero leaks 

 

Anyway, cork /rubber type el cheapo valve cover gaskets leak, fall apart,
probably from Asia, squeeze out / extrude at bolts . It was recommended to
buy best Fel pro, I did ---also nice piece , one side designed to stay on
valve cover , easy on and off . More and more parts people seem to have
multiple levels of quality and tell you that..Rock Auto is good at that. Not
sure though where your washers go, could not be on top, ?? that holds plug
wire guides. 

 

On parts, one 225 slant I did at S&J (then called S&S) had two issues , one,
the cup on the upper end of the push rod is spot welded on , one came off in
Cleveland (67 Dart convert) on way to Boston at 2 AM on 90. 600 miles to go
. Cup came right off push rod top, at 70 mph, from forensic look at parts
days later ,  it was hardly welded on ("new Pushrods") ; very interesting =
check this! Only on a MOPAR, lifter popped out (unknown to me) went down
into pan , maybe push rod,  too or hung there , violent popping back in
intake each time that cylinder intake opened (it was exhaust valve that was
not working, burned charge goes into intake). In desperation by side of road
pulled plug wires live one at a time, popping stopped (I  thought it was a
dropped intake  valve) ; Made it to Boston on 5 cyl, toes and fingers
crossed, wire I pulled I grounded to engine with coat hanger wire to avoid
open circuit blowing coil or cap arc..Volts go WAY high if open circuit.
Only on MOPAR, something like .060 hole lubes 225 lifter, it was squirting
out all the way home but oil pump kept up ! no red light. On most engines=
zero oil pressure,= lunched engine, big hole into oil gallery at lifter,---
if it comes out ,= no oil to bearings. We actually got lifter out through
valve  cover with bendable rod magnet(!) or string we guided to oil pan
drain, with wire, (forget which, tried /used both )  tied lifter to it at
drain hole  pulled up ,  put back in place and a "REAL" new push rod, 25 k
miles ago. Slant redefines great design . never even pulled pan, piece of
push rod sitting at drain hole. .  JEEP 4.0 you cannot get lifters out
without pulling head. Hello? Just make push rod holes big enough, on a
six.or side covers . 

 

Then oil pump has pressed on steel or cast iron gear from  mopar, rebuilds
from Asia have powdered metal gears; maybe can live with that, maybe not
(they were behind all the Ford transmission failures on the old Taurus at
80K) ; but you CANNOT press on,  a powdered metal gear, in my opinion; it
needs a cross pin, spline  or a key. Press on puts at risk for a crack in
tension. Yet one of the dimmest bulbs in the sign pressed it on as part of
"playing engineering"  over there ; so one day at 5000 RPM WOT 1st gear, it
spun free on shaft  ,=  no oil pressure,  red light . Because two
independent gears engage cam on slant , it runs like that , unlike v8 ,
distributor is still turning with oil pump stopped! Unbelievably engine was
still idling,.drove home 5 miles at 25 mph with red light on. (too cold to
walk) ; new "REAL" oil pump, w steel gear , been ok since .Oil pump is
outside engine too, great!  Mother is good. If you see powdered metal gears,
run other way.

 

I do not know how wires are dressed, stock..a picture from back then, may
help ; I think some B blocks had a coating on the metal prongs ,  like
dipped in rubber, at least in later years, saw that somewhere, then they
painted right over it ; I do know 318/360 in truck had black plastic
tops..which all break right off. One of my 70's trucks had new ones made of
thin strong plywood by its elderly prior owner! Held on to vertical piece by
6/32 screw and big #6 fender washer , big as a dime,  in existing hole! Not
concours but works great. He numbered the slots too. Some might think that
is better!

 

John

 

 

 

From: Michael Moore [mailto:mmoore8425@xxxxxxx] 
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 1:02 PM
To: John Grady
Cc: Jamie Hyde; Michael Moore mmoore8425@xxxxxxx [Chrysler300]; bob marco;
Jim; Paul Sebring
Subject: More about [Chrysler300] J cylinder head exhaust seats plus
questions

 

John, I checked the drivers side side, spinning  a cold engine (plugs out)
and those valves are also all at .026. This is where my Barnes cam needs to
be hot.

 

I installed my first Cometic valve cover gasket, and it was well worth the
trouble. It is such a fine gasket.

 

Questions:

 

1. On the 300H, how do the steel plug wire separators go? Pointing to the
center of the head, or pointing to the outside of the head, or all pointing
front, or all pointing rear etc.? Is there supposed to be something between
the metal parts and the ht wires?

 

 

2. I have seen rubber grommets also used with teh valve cover. Where do they
properly go?

 

 

Next step will be to run it, get it hot, then measure valves again hot.

 

Thanks, Mike Moore

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On May 22, 2014, at 1:40 PM, Michael Moore <mmoore8425@xxxxxxx> wrote:

 

John,

Also-I was having a hard time finding 4 hole valve cover gaskets for my
300H.

I found Felpro, and bought those, but really wanted Cometic as I use those
on some other cars and am impressed with them.

 

I couldn't find them listed anywhere in Cometic catalogues, so I called
Cometic  and they made me two sets for $69.

 The Stock Code is VC284188ML,  Description is  "Chrysler 383/400/440 pre
1963" . Their tel no is 440-354-0777.

 

While I was looking for Cometic gaskets, I grabbed a NOS cork set from E Bay
which look fresh.

Mike Moore

300H

 

 

On May 22, 2014, at 8:55 AM, Michael Moore mmoore8425@xxxxxxx [Chrysler300]
<Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

 

  

Here's my experience-My 300H had a major rebuild in 1984 done by Lee
Hamilton Racing Engines in Quincy Illinois.A top notch rebuilder of the day.

 

My wife and I flew back to Quincy and ferried the car back to California
with no drama. I was burning leaded high test gasoline at the time.

 

>From 1964 until then, it had been our family car, making several cross
country trips. After a paint job and a Gary Goers interior, we began taking
the car to shows on the West Coast and Canada.

 

Gradually, leaded premium disappeared. The engine then had 10000 miles since
overhaul. 

 On one trip to a WPC show in Victoria, we were driving the car especially
hard. It was very hot and we were trading off using the busy coast route or
the hotter inland route . Much of the trip was mountainous. I was driving
well over 90 going uphill in very hot weather.I was even trying to see what
the speed coming out of second gear was on a full out acceleration. I think
it was around 100. 

 

I noticed a change in exhaust note eventually, and by the time I got to the
show, I had exhaust gas coming out of the oil breather and the valve cover
paint was blistered. After the show, I began the long trip home back to Los
Angeles. I called Ray Doern, or he volunteered, or I volunteered him, but we
ended up in his back yard in Portland. Several local members of the 300 Club
dropped by to look and offer suggestions. I finally decided that no matter
what, the problem was the head(s), and it had to come off. Ray had offered a
bed for us. We began in the late afternoon to pull the heads in his back
yard. By 9 pm, we had the heads in a Portland machines shop Ray knew. It was
a big automotive machine shop whose chief machinist seemed very
knowledgeable. The valves needed hardened seats he said as the valves were
burned from inadequate cooling caused by lack of lead, poor sealing and hot
gasses blowing through the exhaust valves and guides  etc. 

 

The heads were promised by 2 the next day. Ray left me with a car to run
errands in and the next morning Connie and I cleaned up parts, repainted the
valve covers, got a gasket set and prepared the engine for the heads. As
soon as the heads were ready, we painted them and the intake manifold the
proper color, let the paint flash a bit and carefully installed the still
wet heads. Later that afternoon, we were running again. We cleaned up and
took the Ray and Cindy Doern out to the best steakhouse they knew of,
celebrated success. We departed the next morning and returned to LA without
incident. The most significant damage was a valve guide worn completely
through the guide and kissing the head casting. The theory was that once the
exhaust valve was burned enough to leak, hot gasses traveled up through the
guide leading to the guide damage. The message I got from the shop manager
was that  the 413 in hot weather, uphill, driving hard as I was really
needed hardened seats. I accept his opinion as god knows he has replaced
enough of them to see what's going on.  And, why would I NOT have had the
hardened seats installed at that point?  I recall the job cost me $400
including new valves and hardened seats.        

 

 Mike Moore

 

On May 22, 2014, at 8:12 AM, 'John Grady' jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[Chrysler300] <Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

 

  

 

Hi Jamie, despite the mad rush to put these in, has anyone on server
experienced that failure (which is specifically, what? ) on B engine exhaust
seat without inserts? Can be an issue , I would expect,  on marine or truck
engines under high loads, but car engines,  I have some trouble buying it.
Do not have those in any heads on cars I have built or owned, never had any
problems since 62(!) , and inspected engines with 100k + on them at
teardown, no evidence of anything. I suspect it is a rumor grown large, from
the 283 camp, but emphasize I have an open mind, would like to know of
someone who had this happen. What DOES happen??,(! Facts, from examination,
not magazine or machine shop opinions)??   If not perfectly done,  in terms
of fit ,  they DO fall out, totaling the engine. I do know of that happening
to a friend's engine . Leads to lots of mouth movem ent at machine shop
about why, blame you (somehow)  which does not bring back rare heads,  even
if made whole on $. Further, from engineering view, there is an inefficient
seam in heat transfer from inlaid seat to cast iron, solid iron transfers
heat better, and heat is the enemy. Plus,  amount of iron to water is
reduced, I think making it far far easier to crack it.  Not "breaking
through" but leaving .060 of iron is far worse in fact than breaking
through, as you do not know that.. Your machinist is a very smart guy.
Antifreeze leak takes out whole engine. (just went through that , cam was
round, all rockers totaled inside at shaft) . To answer your specific
question, there are ultrasound devices that can measure depth to water
jacket, but do you REALLY want to reduce that safety factor over group
think?

 

With respect to burning of exhaust, only engine I know of,  personal
experience,  that that happened on was on propane, and it was valve-- not
seat that was badly grooved and burned, that also makes common sense, plain
cast iron seat was perfect, not even needing grinding, new valve and Ok
since  . That seat REALLY surprised me, expected what you talk of,
especially with radially grooved valve right against it..but there you have
it. Destroyed valve,  seat fine.   Seat is surrounded by a large mass of
iron backed by water. Yet, apparently??  Valve has nothing to worry about,??
yet seat gets hurt, per rumor? Right. 

 

Some quality engines have induction hardened heat treated area around
exhaust valve, more for recession or wear than (?" No lead failure-which
specifically, is wha t??"?)  , Putting in seats probably nicely removes the
elaborate heat treat**  . B block might have that , they did something to
improve hemi, as early ones had factory stellite hard seats , believe on
later ones they deleted it.--- Without problems--- but maybe a really good
heat treat. For high performance engines, for sure they would not have
forgotten 55-58 hemi racing experience  in 59-64. Plus no exhaust seat
history on B blocks , (to my knowledge) unlike cheap brand x that does not
even have valve guides (except hole drilled in cast iron) , their heads may
burn. And they outnumber us.

 

All of this assumes correct adjustment of solids,--- too tight you burn
everything, all bets are off if valve is hung off seat when hot. 

 

My .02, ----do not listen to "everyone knows" BS, think it through.as you
are doing. Your thinking is right on. Further if worst prediction happens(it
won't) you do a valve job at 75-100k, still have your J heads, unlike
antifreeze and cracking worries.

 

** had that happen, machine ship proudly turned perfect C or D crank .010 to
"clean it up"  (read charge you)  which removes thin marine/  industrial
heat treat the 300 hemi cranks had. Something like nitriding, read that long
ago, as a costly feature of 392 letter car cranks . Took me a week to get
over that. Not sure I ever did.

 

John 

 

From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 9:39 AM
To: 'Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [Chrysler300] J cylinder head exhaust seats

 







Hello group, The machine shop that is working on my J heads asked me if
there is enough casting meat to put hardened exhaust inserts in the
combustion chambers with the large 300J 1.74 valve diameter? They are
reluctant to t ake a chance on not knowing if anyone has done the inserts on
the 557 J head casting and then ruining my rare parts by breaking into the
cooling jacket.  The senior guy in the machine shop has some experience on a
413 max wedge engine when they went to a 1.81 valve (he does not recall the
casting number of those heads) and broke into the jacket when they did the
inserts, since the heads were not as valuable to him, He just sourced a set
of 915's that were of a later casting and installed the large 1.81 seats
into them without a problem. The factory had apparently changed the mold
casting by then to provide more material in that area that allowed them to
install the hardened seat.  I do not want to run any type of fuel additive
as I would like to have the inserts added to my heads but of course will not
do the inserts if there is a chance that the 557's will be damaged during
the process.  Has anyone on the server installed hardened seats in a J? 

 

 

Jamie  Hyde

585-466-0067 cell

 







 

 

 



 

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------
Posted by: "John Grady" <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
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