Hi all:
And while we're at it, check the push rod in the block behind the fuel
pump. The cam end can wear down and cause a weak fuel flow.
Back in the early 90's when I had my push rod problem with the 300 vert., I
was going up a hill just south of the Oregon border in California. All of
a sudden the engine quit running. I spent a few hundred dollars in the
next town and delayed my trip 1 day there. I had a carburetor shop check
the entire fuel system and the only way we could get it to run right was to
install an electric fuel pump. At first their finding was that the carb
needed rebuilding, so I agreed to it although the carburetor was almost brand
new! To make a long story short, the problem was a worn out push rod on
the cam end. I now carry a spare.
Dan Reitz
Bell Canyon, CA
___________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 3/3/2015 11:45:12 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
Chrysler300-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx writes:
>we know the tank can puke junk into
the fuel line after storage—mostly rust flakes; this gets into mechanical
inlet valve of pump and prevents seating, which stops the flow after typically
10 miles, (too far to walk back) , or weakens the flow rate . The
filter is usually after the pump, under pressure flow, which is OK if big
enough and gas clean . It is there to protect carburetor passages.
There should be a nylon filter on the fuel
pickup line in the tank to prevent this from happening. Also, if a tank is
suspect then it should be pulled, boiled out and sealed (Bill Hirsh sealer,
etc).
I've heard
too many stories of folks who will try to start a car that hasn't run in
decades, by dumping 5 gallons of fresh gas into the tank and cranking. An easy
way to buy yourself a whole bunch of difficult-to-diagnose problems down the
road.
Ron
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 1:16
PM
Subject: RE: [Chrysler300]
This is all
true; however the 300 needs good fuel flow at WOT, and restricting the
suction side of the stock pump (any pump!) is for sure , engineering wise,
not a good idea . Pumps can handle output side restrictions, but input
suction causes lots of problems-- if suction effort rises, ----not the least
of which is the flow drops a LOT, and gas vaporizes, aka vapor lock. There
is much misunderstanding about vapor lock, I think…..gas in the line after
pump is under 4-5 psi pressure , it cannot vapor lock, and if it did (boil
to a vapor at relatively low temp) any bubbles get instantly pushed right
through and out via carb needle until liquid flows. Yet we see attempts at
protecting that line ‘from vapor lock” ? (chevy guys wrap them with
aluminum foil ).
Maybe for
cooling for racing….maybe.
Vapor lock,
true vapor lock, must happen in hot suction line right at fuel pump..It
cannot suck gas vapor in…or only erratically .
I get into
this, as like many others doing old cars, we know the tank can puke
junk into the fuel line after storage—mostly rust flakes; this gets into
mechanical inlet valve of pump and prevents seating, which stops the flow
after typically 10 miles, (too far to walk back) , or weakens
the flow rate . The filter is usually after the pump, under pressure flow,
which is OK if big enough and gas clean . It is there to protect carburetor
passages. . . Think about that. Why not before? There is a very good reason.
I used to routinely put one (large clear body so I can see) before pump to
grab tank junk, it works until WOT; then engine starves and lean mixture, =
? badly burned valves if continued very long. And only at high RPM, so you
do not really know. The ,er , low cost solenoid ‘clicker” pumps (aka
cheap junk) came to us from Lucas designs and 1000 cc 4 cylinder cars. It
both cannot keep up flow itself (IMHO) and restricts main pump , view from
2015.
So what to
do? I trust Carter, they do know a bit about all this, they make a nice all
metal rotary vane pump for about 100$, it can keep up. Might even grind up
rust, mini insinkerator. (only kidding) Then run power wire (14 ga)
through GM /Buick type oil switch with SPDT switch on it (3 terminals)
and a spring return toggle switch in parallel with oil switch
. It runs pump with ign on, oil pressure on (until/unless oil pressure
is not there) --- if you are holding toggle it runs without oil pressure --
spring toggle fixes that prestart issue, cannot be left on, it is in
parallel across oil switch, manual prime . Note this is opposite of normal
oil switch..this one closes one contact with pressure..so if engine stops,
pump stops . Important, right? (accident) . Other pin can be a new nicely
integrated big red warning light for low pressure. One good use for idiot
lights . Common switch terminal to +12 ignition hot though 15 A fuse . On
Studebaker, I do not use toggle anymore , I crank till hemi oil pressure
closes it, pump starts, full carbs in a second . That IS nice for me and
hemi .
That way,
there is no mechanical pump, mount Carter at tank , use 3/8 or 7/16 inlet
suction fuel line( yes a bigger line into tank..you want it right?) .
In that line I put a BIG race filter made by Moroso (for one) about 5” long
and an inch in diameter with a stainless mesh cylinder inside the full
length. You can take apart to clean. No flow restrictions like paper filters
. About 80$ and worth every cent, as opposed to 2AM at side of road..
(Summit).
The other
way is use a Carter mechanical high output pump and this filter in inlet
back at tank , ideally bigger suction line back into tank.
Using two
pumps in series has a very bad failure mode, a cracked diaphragm on
mechanical pump (how they DO fail) = whole tank of gas pumped onto front of
your car as you cruise along. In minutes. Not just into engine. No warning
till PUFF. Pump is often vented to air on purpose or just not sealed(varies)
; into engine is not good either . Using it “just for prime” risks
restricting inlet flow, poor performance. Ok for silver Toyota style
drivers?
I am not
sure if anyone makes a 3-4 lb in tank pump; that may be best of all, if car
is used regularly (zero inlet restriction) (FI pumps are 40psi) , but Moroso
/ Carter outside at tank and large suction line lets you fix in minutes any
junk problems, plus it holds a lot of junk without a problem . And carry
spare carter. Carter has never failed.
I have Hot
Heads equipped 56 354 in a Studebaker coupe, 50 starlight, Turbo 400, where
all this was evolved /learned. Still fighting 2 piece drive shaft vibration
in that. For another day…
Hope it
helps, my .02,
John
PS maybe
ram cars do starve for fuel….now. So burned valves are blamed on the gas?
That said, ethanol gas is awful, requires different A/F ratio, less air /or
more gas flow through jets for same HP, can never run right in gasoline AFB.
It is set up one way or the other. Ethanol into stock 300 AFB gasoline
setup= lean mixture. For sure, wrong A/F ratio. Add fuel pump restrictions
to that…
PPS; above
is why Edelbrock AFB always gets 10 mpg, I think. Ethanol mix
calibration.
From:
Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of 'mgoodknight@xxxxxxxx' mgoodknight@xxxxxxxx
[Chrysler300]
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 6:57 PM
To:
c300@xxxxxxx
Cc: french_fryguy@xxxxxxxxx;
ryan_hillc300@xxxxxxxxxxx; terrymct999@xxxxxxxxx;
chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE:
[Chrysler300]
There's no risk of damage to the engine operated pump or
to the electric diaphragm pump when using both pumps in the same line.
The electric/solenoid pump does not need a bypass system to control or
limit the pressure. It's the spring working against the diaphragm that
provides the correct low pressure. The solenoid simply reloads the
spring as the fuel is released from the pressurized chamber. When
there is no longer any flow from the pump the oscillation of the
solenoid-diaphragm-spring ceases. At least that's the way that most
of our accessory pumps work.
--------------Marshall Goodknight
---------- Original
Message ----------
From: "'Rich Barber' c300@xxxxxxx [Chrysler300]" <Chrysler300-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To:
"'John Lazenby'" <french_fryguy@xxxxxxxxx>,
"'Ryan Hill'" <ryan_hillc300@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc:
<terrymct999@xxxxxxxxx>,
"'Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx'" <chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject:
RE: [Chrysler300]
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 15:19:35 -0800
I believe the way
the electrical pump works on our ’55 C-300 is that it will pump through
the mechanical fuel pump when the key is turned on and continue to do so
until the bowls are full and the float valve shuts off the input. I
can hear the pitch of the pump change when this happens and it make take
15-30 seconds. I know then that the engine is good to go. Give
the accelerator pedal a couple of pumps to put some witch’s brew into the
manifolds, pull the chokes out by 3/8†on a cold engine and it starts
IMMEDIATELY. I don’t know why the manual chokes are on the car but
assume it was hard starting while the car was earning its keep in the
Colorado Springs area for 30 years.
I think my fuel
pump is a positive displacement pump, operated by an oscillating
solenoid. It must have a bypass built into it to limit its outlet
pressure.
And, yes, I put my
car at risk of a blown mechanical pump diaphragm that would allow gasoline
to flow into the block. I did have the electric pump wired to only
operate when I pressed an additional push button but the car acted a little
starved so I changed it to full time. Now I see the poor operation
may have been due to the ignition wire problem previously
discussed.
Rich
B.
Good
thought Ryan but several of my cars don't have electric pumps and they are
still failing.
John, with all
due respect. You were just stating you're replacing your
mechanical pumps annually on all but one of your cars. Are you certain
it is only due to ethanol? Is it possible the failures are linked
to pushing fuel through your mechanical pump while the engine is not
cranking or running?
Ryan Hill
To: ryan_hillc300@xxxxxxxxxxx; pffkllc@xxxxxxx; jsnowosacki@xxxxxxxxx; fabe7445@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
CC: terrymct999@xxxxxxxxx; chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From:
Chrysler300-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date:
Mon, 2 Mar 2015 21:01:51 +0000
Subject: Re: [Chrysler300]
I've
experienced zero problems with electric pumps.
Just a
curious thought. Are any of you guys experiencing pump failures using
electric auxiliary pumps to prime your systems? I know they're low
volume pumps that are generally being used but wondered whether pushing fuel
through a mechanical pump could do any damage to the
valve/diaphram?
Ryan Hill
To: french_fryguy@xxxxxxxxx; jsnowosacki@xxxxxxxxx; fabe7445@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
CC: terrymct999@xxxxxxxxx; Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From:
Chrysler300-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date:
Mon, 2 Mar 2015 15:37:13 -0500
Subject: Re: [Chrysler300]
Query, does
Ethanol erode neoprene as well as lesser materials? I think the
newer materials being used to rebuild fuel pumps may be more resistant.
Comments will be appreciated.
I've
gone through numerous fuel pumps lately due to the crummy California gas.
I believe I'm replacing them annually on each car now with one
exception. Our '53 Imperial Newport still has the original pump and
it always works. Now that I've stated that I'm sure it will start to
leak. Beyond that I've had no issues.
Forgot to
mention I also blame modern gas for hotter exhaust temps that cook
manifold gaskets faster and dry out valve cover gaskets on the Hurst from
close proximity to the HiPo exhaust manifolds.
Sent from my
iPhone
Check
out gas stations around a lake - marine facilities. we live in a lake
area and quite a few stations carry ethanol free gas for all the
boaters, especially the bass boats with their hi gh HP
outboards.
Jim
in sunny, 71F South Carolina (supposed to rain
tomorrow)
We've been on
max (10%) ethanol in MA for quite a while now, and while it has ruined a
couple of fuel lines in weed wackers and chain saws, it does not appear
to have damaged any of my 300s. It has messed up the SU style
carbs in my 72 MG Midget, as well as the sending unit in the gas tank
and the electric fuel pump.
There isn't a
single station in the state that sells real gasoline.
Sent
from my iPhone
I
just read in Autoweek mag Jay Leno's essay on the evils of ethanol.
In my 300F I have been running a mix of 100+ octane leaded
aviation gas and pump premium spiked with the normal amount of
ethanol. Has anybody in the Club experienced any problems with
today's ethanol-infused gas? Jay talks about rubber parts (in
fuel pumps, for example) being eaten up and ensuing engine fires.
Terry
McTaggart
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