Re: [Chrysler300] Transmission cooling line failure inside radiator

["Ray Jones 1970hurst@xxxxxxxxx [Chrysler300]" <Chrysler300-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Thanks, John;
I personally diagnosed my Geo-Therm leak with a sniffer.
I personally saw the many, many pinholes in the lower tubes.
When my A/C guy pulled it out we looked and you would have said it was
rusted out, except it was copper.

My career was working a new Foreign Car Dealerships.
I have installed many more than 1000 A/C's over time, in mostly, Japanese
cars.
And serviced them 25+ years. Never saw a failure in the evaporators or
condensers.
My 1965 300"L" had Freon in it when I bought it in 1974. I thought to
replace it, but then thought, why?
It put out under 40° at the dash vents and would run you out at full blast.
Stopped driving it in 1987, Brake line rusted thru.
I loaded it up on Rene Krogers trailer to bring it from MD to AR in 1997.
After 10 years sitting it started in under 15 minutes and I drove it up on
the trailer.
The A/C was still charged and blowing cold.
Point being, all quality parts, lasting forever.
Now, what do we get for any amount of money? So sad.

Now back to your regularly scheduled discussions...
Ray



On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 12:08 PM, John Grady <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Hi Ray,--I hear you…. However,  I have had a lot of angst with AC too,
> over the years, but found out it is almost always poor workmanship making
> the flares, or failure to clean the braze joints adequately . Has to be
> spotless shiny, M and F  (the ole “that’s good enough” problem) .The low
> priced pre flared pre cut lines they all buy on line , are junk , due to
> flares added in the good ole USA by idiots. Often off center and
> asymmetric, I even found hanging shreds of copper…but AC guy throws them on
> anyway. (look at the ends  if you do not believe me) Tubing is Chinese—but
> not the problem . The lowest price lines have awful flare workmanship. And
> then they have leaks at the flares . Now if you are an AC guy, what long
> sad tear jerker story  might you tell , when all the charge leaks out, and
> looking at 400$ worth of unpaid work to maybe evacuate, fix and do it right
> the second time? ? Think he will come right out and say “I did a poor job?”
> ? Just sayin.
>
>
>
> I had to redo flares and braze joints several times , 3-4 systems , never
> replaced the lines. Last time, pre aware of this ,  I bought a good Rigid
> flare tool (thing is very sophisticated, kinda orbits around the center)
>  and did it very carefully myself.  No leaks so far. I think stories about
> mysterious pinholes all the way through are plain ole BS, in lines anyway.
> ; my .02, because new flares fixed it.
>
>
>
> Thinking more about 300 radiator, and if interior pipe is thin brass,
> whoever commented that the problem is at the fitting might be 100% right.
> If you pull hard on fitting with one wrench tightening lines  it might
> damage interior line right at fitting…that part is very thin and fragile.
> So an installation problem is possible…damaged by excessive torque,  by
> using one wrench? Fits with it leaked at startup, but not at radiator test.
> ( all get tested) . Going to be very careful there now, is the takeaway. .
> Like many here, I am sure, I have broken those trying to get it off, new
> Chrysler/jeep, that flare nut is plain steel rusts solid to the lines .
> replacing line turns into replace radiator.
>
>
>
> *From:* Ray Jones [mailto:1970hurst@xxxxxxxxx]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 07, 2016 4:07 PM
> *To:* John Grady; Ray Jones
> *Cc:* John Nowosacki; Ray Melton; Listsaver 300 Club
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Chrysler300] Transmission cooling line failure inside
> radiator
>
>
>
> Let me insert something here.
>
> Most of the Radiators, condensers and evaporators are now made in China,
> with sub par copper.
>
> My radiator mentioned in an earlier post was a replacement and was made in
> China.
>
> I bought it from Auto Zone with a lifetime guarantee. I tend to look for
> that on any parts I now buy.
>
> They gave me another one with no questions asked. Of course, I had to
> flush and install...
>
> Where I live, there are no Radiator shops and I'm sure that ALL their
> components are made in China anyway.
>
> They Do not make the cores or this cooling coil found in the bottom tank.
>
> My home is heated and cooled with Geo-therm, and the evaporator failed in
> it with multiple leaks in the copper and joints.
>
> The tubing literally developed holes. That cost me $1800. to replace, as
> it was designed for the unit.
>
> Point being, if you are lucky enough to have a good Radiator shop that
> will rebuild your old one, go for it.
> However, this usually means using the upper and lower tank and replacing
> most everything else.
>
> Find out where "everything else" is coming from. Bet it's from China with
> sorry ass copper..
>
> Ray
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 9:22 AM, 'John Grady' jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [Chrysler300] <Chrysler300-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>
> I agree with John , about where the trouble would be,  100% . Radiator or
> engine cooling will not be hurt by oil.
>
>
>
> From that perspective maybe run trans without cooler ,for a week or so
> drive 30 miles daily, the higher vapor pressure of uncooled oil will drive
> water out the fill vent sooner. Maybe even leave that loose or open , let
> water vapor out . And change trans fluid a few times to get any antifreeze
> out. I agree that oil in radiator water probably not a big deal , most will
> end up in high places anyway. Including top of radiator puddle , so running
> water in it and changing a few times ought to fix that part . Does anyone
> know the normal running temp of a torqueflight under load? The max temp?
> Like pulling something? These same transmissions in Plymouths sometimes had
> an ‘air cooled “ converter, vent grill in bell housing,  and no lines at
> all. The point being if trans is OK at 210-215  that is good for getting
> water out. So leave radiator loop out of it for a while. Trans probably
> does not get real hot in normal driving anyway ,on flat roads,-- maybe
> radiator then actually  heats it on cold day to 180-190? .It is converter
> loading (torque) that heats it..climbing mountains or pulling  trailer . I
> seem to remember something like 235 + is still ok . I do know optimal temps
> for gear oil is in the 125 F range. ( have small hydroelectric plant, 200
> HP 9;1 gearbox, on 24/7 got into all that)
>
>
>
> I am interested in WHY it leaked..I believe ,and Don V can correct me,
> that the cooling lines are not under any big pressure..maybe 20 psi? the
> return is just like a drain ---after whatever flows into converter  (
> controlled orifice or regulator) gets out by that line (why this happened ,
> water ran back)
>
>
>
> Given that the cooler is a pretty substantial steel tube, how does it
> “split” ? maybe not on your car ---? but a forensic ripping it out of a bad
> radiator,  see what we have would be very valuable. This is a very bad
> thing to happen to a 300. That it happened to a few of us says cooler must
> rust out or something we are not aware of. ; This has implications on
> testing and rebuilding / recoring radiators too. Or trusting old good ones.
> You could be driving along on your long trip, this happens and you are
> truly done for, as you wopuld not even know it is happening. You are lucky,
> believe it or not, from that view. . Looks like if not noticed you are out
> 5-8k and huge inconvenience and hassle of getting car back etc. . Worth
> getting to bottom of the WHY. . Later ones ( Dakota?) might be plate type
> heat exchangers, sheet metal thin box with welded edges. That I could see
> failing. On external air only ones, have to go as big as you can get, as
> they have no peak capacity. Gallons of water can soak up a lot of heat for
> 10 minutes.(climbing hill steep long ) , 5 lbs of aluminum in air cannot do
> that.
>
>
>
> *From:* Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On
> Behalf Of *John Nowosacki jsnowosacki@xxxxxxxxx [Chrysler300]
> *Sent:* Monday, June 06, 2016 6:49 PM
> *To:* Ray Melton
> *Cc:* chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> *Subject:* Re: [Chrysler300] Transmission cooling line failure inside
> radiator
>
>
>
>
>
> I had the same thing happen to my 57C.  I had the radiator re-cored with
> new oil cooler.  I eventually had the transmission rebuilt.
>
> A person I trust in the business said that the oil in the cooling system
> was not as bad as the water in the transmission system.
>
> He said it might only be a matter of time before the friction material
> inside the transmission would give up the ghost having been contaminated
> with water.  They're made to run in transmission oil, not water.  He said
> that the bonding agent holding the friction material in place was water
> soluable, and that the contamination would lead to eventual separation (or
> not, depending on how bad).
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 6:15 PM, Ray Melton rfmelton@xxxxxxx [Chrysler300]
> <Chrysler300-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>
> I have transmission fluid contaminating the cooling system, and water
> contaminating the fluid in the transmission!  Seeking Advice.  How to
> decontaminate transmission and entire cooling system.
>
> Description of problem:   After manually refilling the Type F fluid (about
> 10 quarts) in the newly rebuilt Torqueflite in my 1957 300C, we came back
> the next morning to find a big pool of water and transmission fluid under
> the car!  They removed the transmission pan, which let out a considerable
> amount of water and oil mix.  The Torque converter was completely drained.
> There were remnants of pink oil visible on the cooling passages when the
> radiator cap was removed.  The radiator was drained of the remaining oil
> and water mixture.
>
> It was quickly concluded that the tubing for transmission fluid at the
> bottom of the radiator had ruptured internally while the engine was being
> run to perform the fluid fill process, pumping high-pressure pink fluid
> into the radiator water while running.  But after shutting down for the
> night, the heavier water pushed back through the (now unpressurized)
> ruptured oil cooler line inside the radiator, which eventually pushed oil
> and water out some overflow location near the back end of the transmission.
>
> The transmission was being run in Neutral, Drive and Reverse during the
> fluid fill process, so we were unwittingly getting some water back into the
> ruptured oil line as soon as the engine was shut down and the transmission
> coolant line pressure went to zero.  Then as soon as the engine was
> restarted, we were pumping some oil into the radiator and also pumping some
> oil/water mix through the transmission.
>
> The entire cooling system (radiator, all hoses, all water passages in the
> engine block and heads, etc.) is now contaminated with at least some amount
> of transmission fluid, so I am seeking advice on how to best remove that
> oily residue.  We plan to blow out the transmission fluid lines at the
> bottom of the radiator to remove as much residual fluid as we can, and then
> just cap off the inlet and outlet lines, so there will no longer be the
> original oil/water heat exchanger functionality.  (That transmission fluid
> cooing aspect will be addressed separately)
>
> Our tentative plan is to refill the radiator with a mixture of water and a
> water-based degreaser like Simple Green, or Purple Power, then run the
> engine until it's good and warm, then drain out all the coolant with
> solvent and oily contaminant.  We will probably do the solvent flush
> routine until we see no further trace evidence of transmission oil in the
> water coolant -- at least twice -- and then refill with distilled water and
> a water-based rust remover called Evapo-Rust to remove some of the rust
> that is most certainly all through the internal coolant passages after the
> vehicle sat idle for 17 years.   I was planning to run that rust-remover
> coolant combination  for several hours, or at least half a
> dozen hot/cooldown cycles before going with a more permanent water and
> antifreeze mixture for everyday driving.
>
> What to you guys think of that plan to remove residual tranny oil from the
> coolant system?
>
> We plan to connect the transmission cooling lines to an external auxiliary
> oil-to-air transmission cooler that will be located in some open space
> roughly in front of the bottom of the radiator wherever it looks like there
> might be some air circulation path.   I was not planning to have any
> fan-forced airflow device, relying just on convective cooling from a fairly
> generous finned heat exchanger in whet will likely be a rather turbulent
> air flow region (but I have NO way of knowing that!)  I don't know what
> temperature the transmission fluid would like to be when it goes back into
> the tranny after the cooling process, although I suspect it would be
> somewhat higher than the temperature in the radiator, around 190 F as
> governed by the thermostat.   I will have no reasonable way to tell what
> the oil temp is when exiting the auxiliary heat exchanger, so I won't know
> if the heat exchanger is doing a good enough job.  I know the air
> temperature will usually be considerably cooler than the 190-degree water
> in the radiator, but I also know that the heat exchange coefficient of the
> oil-to-air cooler is much lower than the HX coefficient of the original
> oil/water cooler system.
>
> What do you think of the oil-to-air auxiliary heat exchanger idea to
> replace the original oil-to-water system? Any thoughts or advice are
> welcomed!
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to
> take away everything you have." ... Thomas Jefferson
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Ray Jones. Y'all come on down an see us. Ya hear?*
>



-- 
*Ray Jones. Y'all come on down an see us. Ya hear?*


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Posted by: Ray Jones <1970hurst@xxxxxxxxx>
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