Re: {Chrysler 300} Re: 300-F - Dual pulley for a/c generator

As a former Illinois Bell Telephone employee who contended with many a Bell battery bank and rectifier plant I can vouch for John's assessment of the 48 volt + ground source that made the (landline) phones work in power outages. Those batteries supplied all talk, signal and switching power to keep an exchange running depending on load for up to 12 hours. Diesel generators kept the rectifiers going.

However, the lore about a battery on concrete has now been clarified. I assumed it was related to trickle current conducted by dirt across the terminals or that the concrete somehow completed a circuit across the battery.

-----Original Message-----
From: "John Grady" <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2023 9:16am
To: "D.C. Mason" <petergriffinforpresident@xxxxxxxxx>, "chrysler 300 club" <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: {Chrysler 300} Re: 300-F - Dual pulley for a/c generator - update -

exactly right !

I admit to thinking this story could not possibly be true , —-it was a lesson to me to keep an open mind . Lesson gladly taken .

Like all chemical reactions , the activity or reaction in a battery is a function of temperature ; same with a battery at rest voltage just sitting there , and also why some VReg adjust charge volts with temperature .

So , on a concrete floor the bottom of the battery tends to be a little bit cooler than the top . Also warm water rises ever so slightly so even a very small temp difference tends to cause warmer solution to move to the top, cooler to bottom .

Then what you have is like two batteries that are in parallel , the top and bottom . But because the volts ARE slightly different due to temp is different , a current starts insyde between the “two batteries “ . Al the battery has extremely low internal resistance even thousandths of a volt cause this current .

So the battery self discharges internally due to that . I started believing , when I left a brand new battery on the floor next to a car , came back in spring it was dead , but one installed in another car next to it was like new .
The cement stays the same temp— usually cooler than air which varies

Cure : put battery on 2x4’s so air goes under it .

Related , I found out huge batteries at telephone company building 48 DC have an acid pump system on each cell to circulate the acid to avoid the temp difference .

For once , the “ old wives tale “ was 100 % valid stuff .Sitting in cement destroys batteries.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 3, 2023, at 7:52 PM, D.C. Mason <petergriffinforpresident@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi John
Looking forward to seeing your future explanation of floor discharge. I understand it is a temperature differential.

👍

D&K

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 3, 2023, at 2:05 PM, John Grady <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

hi James —I think that was a battery problem inherent with sealed batteries on old VR . they hate long slow or floating charge , or charge over 13.6 — slightly different chemistry in them around not making the O and H2 , or about returning it back into the liquid , otherwise they could not seal them .
The regulator does not care about battery internal resistance , only voltage . and max charge current . But if lower ohms or volts at full charge with the same current in , it develops less voltage , VR keeps trying to get to like 14 (or 7 ) and can’t do that , without damage , as a sealed battery is full at say 13.6 .

personally 13.6 is plenty ,( 6.8 ) on either battery , and that problem could have been solved by turning down VR . Why itveas ok for some people . VR setting varies.

To get full AH rating on typical wet open battery requires overcharging to high volts for the last 10 % , that is partly spent making gas , in open liquid battery . Exactly why we had to add water . They expected to top off the battery at oil change .

I have had a solar off grid house since 1970 , went through 3500$ of battery ( two replacements ) before i threw out fancy “volt Sensing” control that “ equalized charged” to 15 v once a month. totally stupid ideas from reading textbooks .

now set on 13.6 . never more.

you do lose 8- 10 % of last jammed in AH , but use no water vs 2 gallons a year on old control .Battery now lasts ten years. The water loss and constant refill soon upsets the critical SGravity match -cells get to be all different . when that happens battery is toast . Real world . We used to call this “ dead cell” .

lots of experts are NOT!!

bottom line leave or reset max V at 13.6 . factory VR on a liquid battery is often set 14.5 , all about the 5 year life they expected of a car . and jamming the battery full . I noticed Japanese car batteries last 8 years in Mitsubishi or toyota . set to low charge voltage , low rate too . I looked into that , if a dead battery in a Japanese car , it takes days to refill . low charge rates , prioritize save the battery over fast fill . I honestly thought charging on a Mitsubishi truck I had was not working right . They are smarter than I am … or most American car makers

Optima ( or any sealed) is NOT a drop in replacement , despite aggressive marketing . Full charge volts are lower . Claims otherwise are about selling you more batteries .

notice how even large computer backup inverters (48v) eat sealed batteries every 3 years ? same game . a cynic would say big $ for the large battery is the end game ( razor blade) . Every time i needed it ( power failure) , it ran 10 % of “rated time “ due to wrecked batteries . special sealed battery form factor you could only get from APC for thousands. I replaced with external wet cell golf cart batteries , turned down charge volts no more issues .

Same with battery saver etc . .= dry wrecked battery every spring . Why ? when put away, the car battery is full . Even .1 amp trickle charge is 2.4 AH a day . “auto charge control” simply does not work as at full charge resting battery is 12.6 .. so is a half dead one. it cannot tell despite wild claims it can . it charges 12.6 to 14 no matter what . Constantly .

30 days later it has jammed 75 AH into an already full battery .so overcharged 2 x —all that goes into changing electrolyte to gas , water drops exposes plates , then battery is toast .

i noticed old 67 dart always started in spring ,no maintainer , yet all the fancy cars with battery savers did not .

now i built “ savers” myself — limited to 13.6 fixed volts . i put them on a few days every month or two . Done with buying 6 new batteries every spring . —just like a sitting all winter toyota , they start right up .

Sent from my iPhone

ps never sit a battery on concrete floor . it will discharge . why ? later !

john

On Feb 3, 2023, at 12:07 PM, James Douglas <jdd@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

John,

A tangential but interesting issue…

In about 2003 or so I put in an Optima Battery in the daily driver 1947 Desoto Suburban.

Over the next year I had generators that started to burn up.

It took a year or more to figure it out with the Optima Engineers helping. I sent back batteries and they cut them open.

What was happing is that the period voltage regulators were “fooled” by the low internal resistance of the Optima Batteries. This led to the battery getting over charged slowly and the battery internally started to short which caused the VR to tell the generator to charge more.

This was evident as the AMP gauge kept showing a slow but increasing charge rate over months.

I ended up switching to a 6 volt positive ground alternator.

When I posted this issue with a number of car forums on these 1940’s vehicles, others chimed in that they never had any issues. After talking with the Optima Engineers, we concluded that in my case since the car was driven daily, I was having the issue. In most cases the cars sat and had a bleed down of the batteries so that they never got run long enough to cause the internal battery issue. Kind of an up and down thing charge wise.

About 3 or 4 years after this episode, in one of my flaying magazines I ran across and article on people with vintage aircraft they had switched to sealed batteries and they have their VR’s and generators burning up. After an investigation with the NTSB in one case the came to the same conclusion.

I write this in the off change anyone who is using a sealed battery on older generator or mechanical voltage regulators to be aware of.

James

From: chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of John Grady
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2023 07:03
To: Brian and Kathy Frank <300gforce@xxxxxxxxx>; chrysler 300 club <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: {Chrysler 300} Re: 300-F - Dual pulley for a/c generator - update -

I recently had a related issue , just fyi . rebuilding 30’s era packard changing to 12 v , being familiar with mopar electrics , I am using that group of parts . Even wire color code of F . ( old age too !) I know F .

So Packards used really beefy fan belts like 5/8 or 3/4 wide . I thought I could remachine a two groove 70 ‘s era 2 wire field mopar alternator pulley by enlarging one groove into metal next to it . But, not enough room . —FYI - it turns out the angle of all common V belts is about the same ,38 degrees or so

— after messing around , just like this issue , my good friend machinist said forget all that , just make a new aluminum billet press on pulley , which he did in an hour or so . measure old one to get fits etc . This bulletproof 60 A or so alternator uses the reliable silver box with 2 wire rubber plug electronic VR . And unbelievably cheap , really nice one from rockauto like 24$ .
one advantage of aluminum pulley is a heat shrink fit is very close to a press on , you heat up pulley to 400 or so it slides on with gloves to cold shaft or light press , when it shrinks back down it is really on there . paint black for 300 .

A good machine shop could turn out 10-20 of these in day and make money at 100-150 each . Project ?

As discussed before , and not being argumentative , in my experience all that rver goes wrong in generators are brushes , the cheap oem springs that push the brushes ( rust) and the bearings . 20$ worth of stuff .

The first parts I ever made for a 300F about 1967 were stainless steel brush springs after being stranded by an erratic generator. I made 100 of them , can’t find the box now .. but easy job for custom spring outfit .

if you have generator problems after storage , first drive— after 10 miles — it’s a stuck brush . Solid tap on back of generator with big plastic hammer will fix it . Windings are fine 99% of time and if a problem there the armature is obviously burned , same with regulators , leave alone . beautifully made at the time in the tens of millions

but to each his own ! and no problem with that !

In the interim , I am saying this pulley swap is a good idea , diameter is not critical at all .

or — make them ..

Also adapting later (?70’s) common V2 ac compressor and the late clutch design it has ,—- is also something to think about along these lines . the early huge AC clutch has issues ….

repro parts project ?

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 2, 2023, at 5:20 PM, Brian and Kathy Frank <300gforce@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Noel and All,

I'm not familiar with anyone named "Dale" in Wisconsin who is working on MoPar Hemi and wedge engines. If you could question Larry a little further, maybe we could track him down.

There is a business, Kilpatrick, here in Waukesha, that specializes in rebuilding MoPar engines and transmissions. Mostly the 1960s Hemis, race engines and the 60s- early 70s muscle car engines. Maybe Dale is there. Mark, if you remember when you and I spoke to a guy with a 1955 C-300 up at Iola in the Car Corral 3-4 years ago, I believe he said he had had some work done on that car at Kilpatrick. A few years ago, they rebuilt the 340 c.i. motor from my brother's #s matching 1969 Dart Swinger 4-speed that he's had since about 1978. They supposedly do great work, but are not cheap with anything they do.

Brian

On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 3:31 PM Noel Hastalis <cpaviper@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

My buddy and 300 Club member Frank Troost has a '55 Imperial sedan currently resting in his building, where my F sat last winter awaiting its rebuilt motor. You may have met Frank at our Pasadena Meet. The Imperial wasn't charging, so the generator and 2 regulators - yes, a Chrysler regulator and an AC Delco regulator both mounted on the inner fender - were pulled by Frank's mechanic, Chuck. Coincidentally, John Lazenby had consulted on a couple items on this same Imperial to the prior owner, who passed away in early 2022, so the car is with its new owner.

I picked up the generator and regulators from Frank, and drove them over to a shop recommended by another buddy - MG Auto Electric in Arlington Heights, IL, about 20 miles north of me. MG has been in business since '54 and Larry, its current owner operator said he's been rebuilding electric motors for 52 years. His dad started this business in '54.

After we finished discussing the '55 Imperial parts, I asked Larry about our 1960 generator dual pulley dilemma. He had a pegboard on one wall with pegs holding probably 200+ pulleys. He mentioned that Chrysler's alternators also used press-on pulley's and one of these, currently readily available, could easily be made to work for us. Also, by sheer coincidence, he happened to have a GJM8202A 1960 a/c generator sitting on the floor that was awaiting his rebuild - received from a mechanic named Dale, in Wisconsin, who's worked on lots of Hemi and Wedge motors for a collector up there whose name Larry didn't know. I called Bob Brown, thinking Dale might be someone he uses, but Bob doesn't know him. Perhaps Brian recognizes the name?

Please look at the attached photos and offer your thoughts. The pulley shaft opening matches our 1960 generator shaft, the width of the pulley belt grooves matches that of the pulley, the diameter of the pulley is about 1/16" shorter than the pulley on the 1960 generator. Though the pulley we held up to the generator has a neck on it, Larry said he can easily machine that off.

A few weeks ago, John Lazenby had also reached out to Brad Brody to explore manufacturing these pulleys and Brad responded that none of his contacts were interested in pursuing making them.

To my uneducated mechanical eye, I'm thinking this will fill the need for our Club members who are looking for the double pulley setup. Larry can also increase the amperage of the armature as needed to run the a/c on our cars if a non-a/c generator requires rebuild.

FYI - Larry rebuilds all sorts of electric motors - generators, alternators, starters, heater motors, etc., etc. - showed me a generator and starter for a stock '36 Chevy he just rebuilt.

Let me know your thoughts on this! If we think this is a viable alternative, we can publicize to our Club members.

Noel

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