Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender
56D500boy
Posted 2017-07-05 7:37 PM (#543605)
Subject: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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I am redoing some of the crusty wiring on my 56 D500 engine as I put it back together (valve covers off to adjust the valves and get painted, other can's of worms, etc).

I bought a NOS 1507 050 coolant temperature sender to replace the existing sender and now I am confused by the presence of two fibre (electrical insulation) washers (one tiny inner one and one larger outer one). I am not sure where the ring terminal needs to go (sandwiched between the washers??) or what?



Edited by 56D500boy 2017-07-05 7:40 PM




(1507050_CoolantTempSensor.jpg)



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56D500boy
Posted 2017-07-05 8:52 PM (#543610 - in reply to #543605)
Subject: RE: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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IF someone could confirm, I think the fibre washers are there to prevent contact between the gauge wire ring terminal and the main brass body of the sender. On that basis, the ring terminal will just go under the pressed metal nut, which is in insulated contact with the center portion of the sender (must be a variable resistance to ground = variable current or voltage (?) = the gauge signal). (Or something like that )

(My existing sender does not have that single nut - it has two jamb nuts which don't want to come off now without spinning the center terminal)



Edited by 56D500boy 2017-07-05 8:55 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2017-07-05 10:37 PM (#543613 - in reply to #543610)
Subject: RE: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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It's just a single connection that you don't want shorting out so you're analysis is correct. You should put the wire on top of the large fiber washer, but I would also put a thin metal washer under the nut so that it won't twist your wire as much when you tighten it. All depends on if you can fit it though, so it needs to be thin.
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-07-05 11:31 PM (#543618 - in reply to #543613)
Subject: RE: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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Powerflite - 2017-07-05 10:37 PM It's just a single connection that you don't want shorting out so you're analysis is correct. You should put the wire on top of the large fiber washer, but I would also put a thin metal washer under the nut so that it won't twist your wire as much when you tighten it. All depends on if you can fit it though, so it needs to be thin.


Thanks for the confirmation and the suggestion. I will finish that part of the rewiring tomorrow.

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Chrome58
Posted 2017-07-06 4:55 AM (#543622 - in reply to #543618)
Subject: RE: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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I bought a new one from Rockauto for my car.
And I must say I was puzzled by the terminal, which is a thin round thing.
I connected my wire terminal to it, but it keeps slipping.

I'm unsure about the correct way to connect the wire to it.





(1T1323__ra_p.jpg)



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mstrug
Posted 2017-07-06 6:11 AM (#543624 - in reply to #543605)
Subject: Re: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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That one needs a connector with a slot in it. Looks like a GM unit, but, I suspect they all used them at one tome or another. Here:

http://www.americanautowire.com/shop/connector-housing-temperature-...

66-71 mopar:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1966-1971-Mopar-Oil-Pressure-Gauge-Light-Se...

white one:

http://www.repairconnector.com/products/GM-Single-Wire-Coolant-Temp...

Edited by mstrug 2017-07-06 6:15 AM
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Chrome58
Posted 2017-07-06 8:42 AM (#543631 - in reply to #543605)
Subject: Re: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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Thanks you.
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LD3 Greg
Posted 2017-07-06 11:49 AM (#543648 - in reply to #543631)
Subject: Re: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender


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This is what I use and I will send you 2 when you order the other terminals.

Greg



(image.jpg)



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56D500boy
Posted 2017-07-06 3:06 PM (#543659 - in reply to #543605)
Subject: RE: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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Okay so I got the old sender out (5/8" wrench and a good rap on the end of the wrench with a rubber mallet to get it going).

Lost a tiny amount of coolant in the less than a second that it took to start the new one in. (Note to self: place rag under sender location next time to catch the flow).

As I am tightening it up, I realize that I might have out-clevered myself: I put white teflon tape on the threads of the new sender before I removed the old one and installed the new one. Unless the threads cut through the tape somewhere, I will have lost the ground that the sender needs. DUH.

I am going to leave it as is until I start the engine again (tomorrow?) and see if I get any signal from the sender. If not, when then engine cools I will remove the new sender and remove the teflon tape and re-install. Probably have to temporarily re-install the old sender as a stopper while I remove the teflon tape (if indeed that is needed).

We'll see.

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Powerflite
Posted 2017-07-06 3:16 PM (#543660 - in reply to #543605)
Subject: Re: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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Teflon tape tears very easily and under compression, fills in all the gaps to create the seal that you want. However, in the locations of the thread that make good contact between the metals, the tape will press out and allow the metals to contact each other. This is assuming that you only used 1.5 to 2 wraps of tape. So in other words, you should be able to get good electrical contact despite using the teflon. It is easy to test. Just put an ohm meter between the sensor housing and the negative battery terminal and see what kind of resistance you get. If you have high resistance, try tightening the sensor a bit more. If it is still to high, take it back out and only use 1 wrap and try again. It should be fine.
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-07-07 1:10 AM (#543682 - in reply to #543660)
Subject: Re: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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Powerflite - 2017-07-06 3:16 PM It is easy to test. Just put an ohm meter between the sensor housing and the negative battery terminal and see what kind of resistance you get.


Good plan. Thanks. I put my DMM onto 200 ohms and touched one probe to the brass outer hex of the sender and the other to the generator mounting bolt on the other side of the water manifold. I got continuity so I will assume that the gauge will work just fine. (I changed the sensor (and the wiring) because I never saw the coolant temp gauge rise very much even after the engine running for some time).

Poking around my files, I found this:



Edited by 56D500boy 2017-07-07 1:32 AM




(TemperatureSenderCrossSection.jpg)



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60 dart
Posted 2017-07-07 4:50 AM (#543683 - in reply to #543605)
Subject: Re: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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you can make a real nice terminal with a small file , a female terminal and a good set of pliers and no one will ever know and it'll stay tight-----------------------------------------------------------later
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-09-08 4:35 PM (#547994 - in reply to #543683)
Subject: Re: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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I took the 56 Dodge to an ad hoc car show at an A&W about 20 miles away yesterday. Went there early = rush hour traffic. I did get on a highway part of the way and did have the old dear up to 65 mph (Yikes) at one point. When I arrived at the A&W I noticed that the coolant temperature was still as hot as I have ever seen it, i.e. barely off the peg (moves off the peg when the ignition is on) but always no higher than the start of the line, as shown in the photo below. (Just an example 56 Dodge dash photo (not mine) that I have annotated).

Seems too low. How can I check this?





Edited by 56D500boy 2017-09-08 5:51 PM




(56DodgeWaterTempGaugeExample.jpg)



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DepsilonD
Posted 2017-09-08 6:33 PM (#547999 - in reply to #543605)
Subject: Re: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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The red line you drew in is typically where my car runs on the gauge Dave. It's gone midway + on the gauge a few times but only in high heat/traffic situations (like sitting in line at a car show).
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56D500boy
Posted 2017-09-08 7:01 PM (#548000 - in reply to #547999)
Subject: Re: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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DepsilonD - 2017-09-08 6:33 PM The red line you drew in is typically where my car runs on the gauge Dave. It's gone midway + on the gauge a few times but only in high heat/traffic situations (like sitting in line at a car show).


Well, I guess it could be real then. I did have the rad recored with a 3 row instead of the original 2 row.

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57chizler
Posted 2017-09-12 4:45 PM (#548231 - in reply to #548000)
Subject: Re: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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If you have an efficient cooling system the gauge will follow the thermostat temperature, 180° thermostat will have the needle about half-way and a 160° will read lower.
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-04-27 5:35 PM (#562378 - in reply to #548231)
Subject: Re: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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57chizler - 2017-09-12 4:45 PM
If you have an efficient cooling system the gauge will follow the thermostat temperature, 180° thermostat will have the needle about half-way and a 160° will read lower.


I installed that NOS temperature sender and there was no real change to the very low temp reading.

Based on my understanding of the way the gauge works, there is a mechanically variable resistor inside the sender, like this:



On this basis, I presume that the voltage that gauge sees is variable, between 0 V cold and battery voltage (or something stabilized, e.g. 5 V) maximum when very hot.

I happen to have a "spare" temp gauge that came with a gauge cluster that I bought. Yesterday I tried this temp gauge by hooking it to the battery, one terminal to + and the other to ground. I wasn't sure what the hook up was and therefore I tried it two different ways on the two terminals on the back. In both cases, the needle on the gauge went hard to the left.


I am probably missing something. Like one terminal is 12V in and other is 5V out to the sender and the sender is ground ???.

OR ???

Not feeling very gauge smart at the moment.



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Powerflite
Posted 2018-04-27 6:46 PM (#562382 - in reply to #543605)
Subject: Re: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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You're just assuming the wrong resistance. Put a resistor in series with it, like the sender would give and then do the same thing. I am not sure what that nominal resistance is, but it could be many hundreds of ohms. Connect it to a potentiometer so you could adjust the resistance until you get a half-way reading on your gauge. Then you will know that is the amount the gauge is looking for.

Oh, and another thing....Many of these old gauges are gravity sensitive. If you don't have them sitting like they are designed to sit in the dash, they can do weird things that you wouldn't expect them to.

Edited by Powerflite 2018-04-27 6:51 PM
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wizard
Posted 2018-04-28 4:36 AM (#562410 - in reply to #543605)
Subject: Re: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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Try to mount two nuts on the stud and carefully turn the stem a Little - sometimes there's bad contact inside the senders,
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-04-28 5:25 PM (#562438 - in reply to #562410)
Subject: Re: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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wizard - 2018-04-28 4:36 AM
Try to mount two nuts on the stud and carefully turn the stem a Little - sometimes there's bad contact inside the senders,


The sender is a NOS one that I installed. But sure, I will try that too.

I am not sure if the voltage to/from the gauge is regulated to 5V or ?? based on these diagrams:





(56DodgeWiringDiagrams_2.JPG)



(56DodgeWiringDiagrams_3.JPG)



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56D500boy
Posted 2018-04-28 9:37 PM (#562454 - in reply to #562438)
Subject: Re: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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The coloured section is a portion of this larger 11 x 17 (ish) wiring schematic. I know that the colours aren't always accurate, I just use it as a guide.





(56DodgeWiringDiagram_Combined_small.jpg)



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56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-21 8:57 PM (#573938 - in reply to #562454)
Subject: What the Service Reference Book No. 94 says about the temp sender



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Got the No. 94 Service Reference Book from James Van B. in Oz the other day (thanks James).

Thought I would scan a few pertinent pages for this thread and post them.

The discussion/description helped me understand why there are two coils at the back of most of the gauges and, specifically, the temperature gauge. I would like to figure out how to manually (with a 12V source) peg the gauge to HIGH so I at least know that it is working.



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-11-21 10:29 PM




(55-56DodgeTemperatureSenderInfo_1_small.jpg)



(55-56DodgeTemperatureSenderInfo_1B_small.jpg)



(55-56DodgeTemperatureSenderInfo_2_small.jpg)



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The Adventurer
Posted 2018-11-21 11:28 PM (#573951 - in reply to #543605)
Subject: RE: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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No sweat ! Glad you got them !
I don't think people realise how god these books really are !
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wizard
Posted 2018-11-22 1:06 AM (#573956 - in reply to #573938)
Subject: RE: What the Service Reference Book No. 94 says about the temp sender



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56D500boy - 2018-11-22 2:57 AM

I would like to figure out how to manually (with a 12V source) peg the gauge to HIGH so I at least know that it is working.




Dave, normally this should be done with a tank sender (variable resitance), but you can do it this way.


Remove the temp sender Connection from the temp sender
Connect a long wire to the temp sender connector and pull it inside your car

Now, with the ignition on, hold the wire against a good ground while you watch the temperature gauge.

Disconnect the wire as soon as you see the needle is near hot (can go very fast).

If you don't disconnect directly, the gauge or needle can be damaged.

The temperatur sender gives a variable resitance towards ground



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56D500boy
Posted 2018-11-22 1:38 PM (#573989 - in reply to #573956)
Subject: RE: What the Service Reference Book No. 94 says about the temp sender



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Thanks for that idea Sven. I have a mechanical variable resistor (house light dimmer) that I can put into series with that "fake" ground wire and dial in zero to max resistance and see how the gauge responds.

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56D500boy
Posted 2019-03-04 11:13 PM (#578882 - in reply to #573989)
Subject: RE: What the Service Reference Book No. 94 says about the temp sender



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Please correct me if I am wrong, based on the above diagrams and pages from the instruction books, the ground wire to the coolant temp sender is the one connected to the gauge via a bullet-ended wire and the switched 12V source is the one connected via ring terminal and the threaded stud and nut??

(Left = bullet connector, right = ring terminal):



Edited by 56D500boy 2019-03-04 11:16 PM




(1955 Plymouth Oil Pressure and Temp Gauge 1 2.JPG)



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56D500boy
Posted 2019-03-10 9:00 PM (#579140 - in reply to #578882)
Subject: RE: What the Service Reference Book No. 94 says about the temp sender



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Had the 56 Dodge out today (8 C and sunny). Roads were nice and dry. Put some 94 Chevron (with lots of Techron and supposedly no ethanol) in the tank. Purrrr....

When I came back, I looked for my never-used air chisel for my cross-member clean up project. In that search process, I also found a new in the box laser temperature measuring "gun". I opened the box up and installed the battery in the gun and "shot" the top of the rad tank. Read about 170-2 F. Which is interesting because the coolant temp gauge only every gets to the left end of the normal "bar", which is supposed to be about 150 F.

I really need to figure out how to install the NOS temp gauge I picked up earlier in the week - without totally disassembling the dash.





Edited by 56D500boy 2019-03-10 9:25 PM
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sermey
Posted 2019-03-11 8:37 AM (#579162 - in reply to #543605)
Subject: RE: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender


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Here you may find some useful answers to your Temperature Sender problems.  - SERGE -

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=29524&posts=22&start=1

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56D500boy
Posted 2019-03-11 1:17 PM (#579175 - in reply to #579162)
Subject: RE: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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sermey - 2019-03-11 5:37 AM

Here you may find some useful answers to your Temperature Sender problems.  - SERGE - http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=29524&...



Thanks for the link Serge. I think that I went through that thread before (last year?).

I am not sure if you are suggesting that the sender or the thermostat are faulty. Both are "new" (NOS or new).

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56D500boy
Posted 2020-04-24 4:16 PM (#597296 - in reply to #579140)
Subject: RE: What the Service Reference Book No. 94 says about the temp sender



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Well this has gone on too long. It is now my No.1 thing to fix.

What are the chances that the issue is the Teflon sealing tape that I wound onto the the NPT threads before I installed the NOS sender onto the engine? As in poor ground = poor signal?

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Powerflite
Posted 2020-04-24 4:25 PM (#597297 - in reply to #543605)
Subject: Re: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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It's possible if you put too much of it on there. But typically, the threads are very good about cutting through that tape to make contact. The general rule is to use 2 revolutions of tape. It's easy enough to test it first though. Just measure the resistance from the sender body to the negative side of the battery.

Edited by Powerflite 2020-04-24 4:27 PM
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-04-27 11:22 PM (#597447 - in reply to #597296)
Subject: RE: What the Service Reference Book No. 94 says about the temp sender



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56D500boy - 2020-04-24 1:16 PM.
Well this has gone on too long. It is now my No.1 thing to fix.


Okay. Bit the bullet and assumed the position (the upside down astronaut position, not the bend over and say Ahhh position).

But first, I disconnected the wire at the sender and checked a) continuity back to the gauge (yes it is the bullet connector terminal on the gauge) (All good) and b) resistance cold.

Then I started the engine and let it warm up while I did a few things in the back yard.

When I checked the temp by the sender (with an infrared thermal laser) is was about 150 F. The coolant in the tank at the top of the rad was about 167 F. Then I shut off the engine and measured the resistance at the sender. It was less that when it was cold, which I thought was a good thing.

Then I tried Sven's trick of grounding out the sender connection to the gauge. Either I did that wrong (I tried more than once) or the gauge is faulty. I used the same grounding location and switched my DMM to 20V DC and got 11.7 volts (engine off but key to RUN) so I think the ground was good. The gauge just didn't respond to the ground trick. Conclusion: Sender is working, gauge is not.

Then I really did the upside down astronaut thing



Removed the gauge. Looked fine, but who knows. Went down stairs and got the "spare" old used gauge that I had bought off eBay sometime ago with an oil pressure gauge, in a cluster. Removed that temp gauge from the eBay cluster and, without further testing, installed it in my dash cluster and hooked up all the wiring again.

Turned the key to RUN and got absolutely nothing. Not a peep. The temp gauge needle did not budge a mil. Dead. Pining for the Fjords.

At least the original gauge would pretend to work with the key turned to RUN.

So lesson learned: Don't install an untested gauge. Test first and then install.

Tomorrow I am going to set up a test of

1. The original gauge
2. The spare gauge to confirm it is dead
3. The NOS gauge that is still in the NOS box to show me what a gauge should work like.

Presumably the NOS gauge will work and I will install it and be happy.

I have few hints on the removal and re-installation but those can wait until tomorrow.



Edited by 56D500boy 2020-04-27 11:35 PM
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-04-28 8:50 PM (#597488 - in reply to #597447)
Subject: Installing a new temp gauge in a 1956 Dodge



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Follow up from yesterday.

I couldn't find a potentiometer to create a variable resistance to ground so I decided to just install the NOS gauge that I had (still in its box).

The photos below more or less tell the story. The bullet connector (for the wire to/from the sender) was very tight. Ended up having to use needle-nose pliers to get it out of the female connector on the gauge. The switched power wires are held to the gauge with a 3/8" nut (probably 10-24 ??).

First thing to do, to remove the old gauge (in my case the very dead spare gauge that I had installed yesterday thinking that it was going to be good (it wasn't) ), is to wiggle the gauge cluster lamp holder out of cluster and park it out of the way. It interferes with the removal and installation of the temperature gauge. Tuck it somewhere out of the way.

With it out of the way, remove the bullet connector on the sender terminal (needle nose pliers?) and the 3/8" nut from the switched power stud on the gauge. Tuck those three wires out of the way. They will interfere with installation of the new gauge if you don't. With the wires out of the way, remove the two screws that hold the gauge into the cluster. Now the gauge is loose in the cluster.

I found that it worked best to pull the outer edge of the temp gauge up first and then tilt the gauge so it clears the cluster and pull it carefully out.

I wiped the back side of the gauge cluster lens to remove dust, etc. Then I started the install of the new gauge.

I found that it worked best to a) have those wires 100% out of the way and b) then tilt the new gauge into the cluster, starting with the edge of the gauge that is closest to the middle of the cluster. Then move the gauge towards the middle of the cluster and tilt down the outer edge of the gauge face to clear the metal of the cluster.

Once in place, I started the two screws by hand and then checked the appearance of the gauge through the cluster lens. If all good, proceed to tighten the screws. *IF* you happened to snag the needle on the way in and bent it, you'll have to remove the gauge again and gently bend the need back to the proper position (DO NOT ask me why I am saying this ).

Once the gauge is sitting pretty, tighten the screws, put the switched power wires over the stud, add and tighten the 3/8" nut and re-install the bullet-ended wire to/from the sender.

Then I checked that the gauge had power and might work by turning the ignition key to RUN. This time the needle moved under power (not like yesterday) but this was just like the original gauge that I removed yesterday.

Then I started the car and let it idle until it came up to about 160 F/170 F at the water manifold where the sender sits. Checked the gauge and low and behold, it is working. And apparently properly (needle just a tad to the left of the middle of the scale (which is supposed to be about 180 F)) First time since I've owned the car. I am guessing that the temperature sender that I removed 3 years ago is fine; it was the gauge all along. Go figure.

Some photos from today:





Edited by 56D500boy 2020-04-28 10:41 PM




(56DodgeTempAndOilGaugseCluster_StartingPoint_Annotated.jpg)



(56DodgeTempAndOilGaugseCluster_GettingTempGaugeWiringOutOfTheWay.jpg)



(56DodgeTempAndOilGaugseCluster_EndPoint.jpg)



(TempGaugeFinallyWorking_1.jpg)



(TempGaugeFinallyWorking_2.jpg)



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Attachments 56DodgeTempAndOilGaugseCluster_StartingPoint_Annotated.jpg (210KB - 38 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeTempAndOilGaugseCluster_GettingTempGaugeWiringOutOfTheWay.jpg (190KB - 37 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeTempAndOilGaugseCluster_EndPoint.jpg (186KB - 40 downloads)
Attachments TempGaugeFinallyWorking_1.jpg (134KB - 38 downloads)
Attachments TempGaugeFinallyWorking_2.jpg (130KB - 37 downloads)
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Mopar1
Posted 2020-04-30 11:30 AM (#597542 - in reply to #543622)
Subject: RE: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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Chrome58 - 2017-07-06 3:55 AM

I bought a new one from Rockauto for my car.
And I must say I was puzzled by the terminal, which is a thin round thing.
I connected my wire terminal to it, but it keeps slipping.

I'm unsure about the correct way to connect the wire to it.

That's the way the oil pressure sending unit was on a '69 Charger I used to have, disconcerting when it would slip off!
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-04-30 1:15 PM (#597547 - in reply to #597542)
Subject: RE: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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Location: Lower Mainland BC
Mopar1 - 2020-04-30 8:30 AM
That's the way the oil pressure sending unit was on a '69 Charger I used to have, disconcerting when it would slip off!


Well in 56 at least, there would be no "slipping off" of the oil line to the pressure gauge. The hose is similar to a brake hose in the sense that the rubber is crimped to a ferrule and a fitting (over a flared-end tube) is screwed into the gauge body. As long as that fitting is tight, things would be fine. No signs of any leakage in almost 64 years.

PS: It is amazing how much surface rust I don't see until I take a photo and then it jumps out an begs to be fixed (painted in my case)





Edited by 56D500boy 2020-04-30 1:18 PM
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-05-01 10:51 PM (#597624 - in reply to #597547)
Subject: RE: Question about the 1507 050 Coolant Temperature Sender



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Posts: 6249
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Location: Lower Mainland BC
.
Now that my coolant temperature gauge is working properly for the first time after almost 3.5 years of owning the car, guess what my new "pass time" is?

Answer: Checking and re-checking that the temperature isn't going above 180 F (which is the temp of the thermostat that I installed in the fall of 2016 after I got the car).

So far, not an issue.

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