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Well David,
I must say this makes really sense!
Thanks for sharing your training material with us
:)
Robert
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 7:21
PM
Subject: Re: IML: 1960 Starter Drags when
Engine is At Operating Temp.
This is from one of my training materials:
In metal conductors, electrical current flows due to the
exchange of electrons between atoms. As electrons move through a
metal conductor, some collide with atoms, other electrons or
impurities. These collisions cause resistance and generate heat.
Heating the metal conductor causes atoms to vibrate more, which in
turn makes it more difficult for the electrons to flow, increasing
resistance. Thus, when a conductor is heated, as in being too
close to a heat source such as an exhaust pipe, the conductivity
goes down, as the resistance goes up (Conductivity in Siemens =
1/Resistance in Ohms). As resistance goes up, current goes down,
and the motor eventually stops turning.
Here is a really nifty visual representation. You will need
Java installed to see it:
http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/education/tutorials/java/heatresistance/index.html
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--
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
---- Christopher
H <imperial67@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I humbly have to disagree with
that. My '67's original starter exhibited
exactly these symptoms as it got
near the end of its life after 124,000
miles. Hot starts (meaning any time
the engine was at normal temp) became
increasingly difficult due to thermal
expansion of the starter from the
ambient heat of the exhaust and engine,
which caused excessive draw due to
the increased friction.
It took
well over a year (which for me was only a couple hundred miles) for
the
starter to finally (and slowly) crank its last. Thankfully I had a
rebuilt
unit and my tools in the trunk and a few extra hours in my office
garage
one Sunday night and I was good to go (which is not to say wrestling
a
75-lb starter out of an Imperial is child's play!). And the new
starter
completely cured the hot starting challenge.
Chris in
LA
67 Crown
78 NYB Salon
On 3/23/07 9:44 AM,
randalpark@xxxxxxx at randalpark@xxxxxxx wrote:
> Internal parts
expansion should NOT be a problem with these cars. If
> the engine is
getting that hot, it isn't going to run very much longer.
> The only
cause I have ever experienced with this symptom (starter drag
> when
warm) on any of my Imperials has been the timing issue. For me,
>
starter trouble has always simply resulted in a total failure of the
>
unit, out of the clear blue sky without any warning.
>
> Paul
W.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
R.vdes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent:
Fri, 23 Mar 2007 8:32 AM
> Subject: Re: IML: 1960 Starter Drags when
Engine is At Operating Temp.
>
> Thanks Paul for your sharing your
knowledge!
> As always to the point, and very
helpful!
>
> I will give it a try then and back off
the timing a little, too see
> what happens.
> The reason I
gave it a little extra adventage is to compensate the
> slight power
loss that you get when you convert an engine to run on LPG
> (or propane
as it is called in the US).
> You can do this safely because the
octane rating of propane is much
> higher, so you don't have to worry
about pre-ignition (spark knock).
>
> Another reason
for starter drag might be an internal seizure due to
> expanding of
parts inside under influence of the heat, don't you think?
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From:
<randalpark@xxxxxxx>
> To:
<mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Friday, March 23,
2007 4:16 PM
> Subject: Re: IML: 1960 Starter Drags when Engine is
At Operating Temp.
>
>> My feeble mind says that
depending on where the engine is when it
> stops, > if the ignition
is firing, pushing the piston down, while the
> starter is > trying
to push it up the starter will drag. If too many
> pistons are doing
> this at the same time, the engine will be difficult
> to crank. It
can > happen when its cold too, but usually is more
> noticeable, and
likely to > occur when the engine is warmed up. Over
> the years I
have been in this > situation a number of times. Correcting
> the
timing has reduced the load on > the starter.
>>
>> My father actually once talked a guy he worked with into
rebuilding
> the > engine in a car that was doing the same thing,
after he replaced
> the > starter. My father, who is a mechanical
engineer, convinced the
> guy that > he had a spun bearing, and that
the engine was going to
> seize, even though > the car ran fine once
it started. The new engine
> didn't fix the problem. > Further
discussion led to the fact that the
> guy habitually advanced his >
timing, even on his new "long block"
> engine, a little bit past factory
> specification to get a little extra
> "UMPHF". When he backed it
off, the > problem went away.
>>
>> As I
have explained before, my knowledge is based on practical
> experience.
> I am not an engineer, chemist, or scientist. What I share
> has
worked for > me. I road time my cars, I do not use a light. When
>
they are too far > advanced, they spark knock, which is damaging to
the
> engine. They can be > difficult to turn over, particularly when
warmed
> up. There are several > different problems that can cause
this same
> symptom. I am suggesting one > idea that might correct
it.
>>
>> In your shoes, I would back off the
timing and see if the problem
> went > away, before replacing the
starter, especially since you know
> that the > timing is
advanced..
>>
>> Paul W.
>>
-----Original Message-----
>> From:
R.vdes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> To:
mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Sent: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 5:27
AM
>> Subject: Re: IML: 1960 Starter Drags when Engine is At
Operating
> Temp.
>>
>> Sorry Paul, but I
don't understand...
>>
>> How can the timing
influence the rotation speed of a starter motor??
>> I must
admit that my timing is too advanced hower, it's about 12.5
> degrees
> BTDC instead of the recommended 10 degrees. That is because
> the
engine is > running on propane instead of gasoline.
>> Since
propane has a much higher octane rating then regular gasoline
> it is
> safe to advance the timing a little, and it gives the engine
> more
power.
>>
>> But I don't understand why this
also influence the performance of the
>> starter motor when the
engine has been warmed up ?
>>
>> Maybe you can
shine a light on it for me :)
>>
>>
Thanks,
>>
>> Robert
>> -----
Original Message ----- From: <randalpark@xxxxxxx>
>> To:
<mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Friday, March
23, 2007 12:36 PM
>> Subject: IML: 1960 Starter Drags when
Engine is At Operating Temp.
>>
>> That will
also happen if the timing is too advanced. Try backing it
>
off
>> a little and see if the problem goes away. Heat
shouldn't effect the
>> starter that much.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> -----Original
Message-----
>> From: R.vdes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Sent: Fri, 23 Mar 2007
2:50 AM
>> Subject: Re: IML: Wire Wheels for my 60
imperial
>>
>> OK James,
>>
>> I understand, maybe the best thing I can do is to find me a
reputable
>> rebuilder and send him my original
starter.
>> You see, mine is having problems when it is getting
hot. The starter
>> spins perfectly when the car is cold, but
when the car is driven for
> a
>> while and the engine
has warmed up it turns around very slow.
>> If you wait for an
hour or so the starter will act normal again :)
>>
>> Robert
>> ----- Original Message
-----
>> From: James L BURTON
>> To:
mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007
11:36 AM
>> Subject: Re: IML: Wire Wheels for my 60
imperial
>>
>> Hello, no I havent I think its
not worth all of the opposition and
> the
>> hassle to go
with the little outcome of the result. The msd ingnition
>>
system has to be on its toes. To have the least effect against
my
>> oringinal starter. The header issue isnt worth the gamble
when Im
> just
>> going to use it for cruisins, and some
kind of shows .My motor is
>> allthat and im not going risk
nothing because everything shiney and
> new
>> will make
you feel that way.
>> ----- Original Message
-----
>> From: Rob van der Es
>> To:
mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007
1:46 AM
>> Subject: Re: IML: Wire Wheels for my 60
imperial
>>
>> Hi James,
>>
>> Have you actually found another starter for your 60
already?
>> I am still looking around for the best option you
see.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Robert
>> ----- Original Message
-----
>> From: James L BURTON
>> To:
mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007
9:35 PM
>> Subject: IML: Wire Wheels for my 60
imperial
>>
>> To everybody thank you for your
support on helping me make a sound
>> decision on the hi output
starter, and header for my . There both out
>> now Im looking
for some wire wheels , Does anybody know if a ford
>
wire
>> wheel will fit the imperial ? If not can somebody help
me ?
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