Re: IML: Lead additive

["Burt Bouwkamp" <northburt@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Paul,

You reminded me of "the rest of the story".

I started at Chrysler in 1949. After two years of on-the-job training I
started a regular job as an engineer in the Engine Development Laboratory.
My specific job was as a project engineer on the development of the Dodge
Red Ram V-8  hemi engine. At that time (1950-51) it was standard practice to
put hardened exhaust valve seat inserts in all our engines. Then somebody -
I don't know who - discovered that with leaded gasoline the hardened valve
seats were not required.'' So - we took the hardened valve seats out to save
the money. Then - along came unleaded gasoline and we were in valve seat
wear trouble so we induction hardened (cheaper than a hardened insert) the
valve seat area.

The mystery in all this is - who was smart enough to know/learn that valve
seat inserts were not needed with leaded gas?

Burt Bouwkamp


----- Original Message -----
From: "PAUL WENTINK" <randalpark@xxxxxxx>
To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive


This post from Burt corresponds exactly with my understanding of the
situation regarding unleaded gas and our cars.

I will also add that I have been told that through 1955, Chrysler
automobiles were able to withstand unleaded gas. This wasn't
deliberate, but rather it was after that the engineers realized that
since lead prevented valve and valve seat wear, hardened valves and
seats were not necessary. Beginning in 1956, the cylinder heads were
changed slightly as a cost saving measure. The engines built from then
on required leaded fuel to prevent wear for extended high speed
driving. I would like to know if anyone has also heard this or knows it
to be true. Remember, lead wasn't added to prevent valve and valve seat
wear. It was added to eliminate pre-ignition and increase the octane
levels. The fact that it also allowed for a cost reduction in producing
engines was a bonus for the bean counters.

I drove various Imperials as everyday cars in the '70s & '80s, mostly
my '56 & '65 models. It was in the late 1980's that leaded gas vanished
 from our area. I began using Bardahl Instead-o-Lead with each fill up.
At the time, it was rated as a quality product. Also, the speed limits
were Federally regulated at 55, so whether this additive actually
worked or not, the engines were not working hard enough to cause much
damage due to unleaded gas. I discovered that I was using too much of
the product and eventually it caused the cars not to run well. I had
the tanks drained and discontinued using it. There are probably two or
three unused cases somewhere in my garage.

These days, there are 75 mph speed limits, which means some folks are
going to drive 80. I think driving our cars using unleaded gas for
extended periods at these speeds will cause accelerated valve and valve
seat wear. Rather than relying on an extra cost additive, I plan to
take it easy on the road. When the cars require valve work, I'll have
the cylinder heads reconditioned with hardened valves and valve seats.

I believe that this is the only truly correct approach for me to take,
particularly since most of my cars are around the point where they
would be needing valve work as part of the regular maintenance of the
engine anyway.

Paul W.

Paul W.


-----Original Message-----
From: Burt Bouwkamp <northburt@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 12:42 pm
Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive



Michael,



When we developed and tested the Chrysler engines in the 1950's and
1960's we did it with a tetra ethyl lead additive (3 cc's per gallon I
think) in the gasoline. It worked - in fact the engine relied on the
lead deposits to avoid valve seat wear at high engine HP outputs. (Wide
open throttle at high engine speeds results in high valve temperature
and high speed valve action.)



Young engineers - such as myself - did not know that lead was providing
this benefit until we started testing engines with "no lead" gasoline.
Valve seat recession during testing due to wear required us to
harden valve seats or add hardened inserts to production engines to use
unleaded gasoline. You probably remember that the auto and petroleum
industry used a lead additive - until it was banned - because it was
the cheapest way to produce gasoline with the octane rating that we
wanted.



I don't know what happens to valve seat wear when you add Marvel
Mystery Oil or ATF to the gasoline. I use am STP Lead Additive in the
gas tank of my old cars but they are driven so few miles - and usually
below 60 MPH - that I doubt that it makes any difference. I only do it
because I have personally inspected durability test engines (with
around 1,000 hours operation) with more than 1/4" of valve seat wear
due to testing with unleaded fuel. If I ever have the engine rebuilt in
my 1968 Dodge Charger I will have hardened valve seat inserts added.



Burt Bouwkamp



---- Original Message -----


From: Michael Alexander

To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 1:01 PM

Subject: RE: IML: Lead additive





I just bought a bottle of Lead Additive at Advance Auto, which says on
the bottle “for older cars which need leaded gas”. Anyone have any
experience with this product?

I guess my choices for the 1952 Imperial are: Marvel Mystery Oil, ATF,
or this stuff. Online voting begin!!!

Seriously though, thanks,

Michael Alexander




------------------------------------------------------------


 From: mailing-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:mailing-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gary Wilson
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:01 PM
To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: IML: Recession Unleaded Gas: MMO vs. ATF





I don't know about running a qt of oil thu the tank but ATF works real
well because it is a high detergent and helps coat the valves seat like
leaded gas use to do.




----- Original Message -----



From: YBSHORE@xxxxxxx



To: mailing-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx



Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 6:17 AM



Subject: IML: Recession Unleaded Gas: MMO vs. ATF








Fellow Imperialists:







On my 1956 Imperial w/354 Hemi/Torqueflite 3 speed combo, I run a
Marvel Mystery Oil blend through the fuel tank at every fill-up
according to the specs on the bottle and have had great luck with it [I
use it as well in the motor oil] and change the oil quite often, every
1500 miles. I wonder, though, if it is providing the same degree of
'engine maintenance' that the ATF does/would do with a periodic run
through. Any thoughts?







Jack















In a message dated 10/25/2007 9:03:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
randalpark@xxxxxxx writes:



like the idea of running a quart of oil through the gas once in a
while. I have found that it does improve performance.

Paul W.












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