Neil --
I've been following the off-shoot of the 383 Cam thread with some interest. I too had Brake Problems in 1999. I had just gotten my 56 Firedome running. Brake problems started with a blown axle seal dumping oil into the right drum & drenching the shoes. From there to getting new brake linings applied to all shoes.Next was a lesson in Manual Adjust Brakes. Once all that was dealt with, I tackled the Wheel Cylinder blow by caused by pitting in all 6 Wheel Cylinders. I solved that by sending them to White Post for bore & sleeve work. The Wheel Cylinders returned in 1 week & the total was $100 for all 6. After reassembly I could not hold the car at a traffic light. My foot crept to the floor & required pumping the pedal to hold the car. The last component in the system was the MC. I sent it to White Post & for $50 they bored & sleeved it. I have also had the Brake Light switch leak twice since then. Last Fall I had 1 of the front Wheel Cylinder Sleeves come loose & jam the Brake Shoe into the Drum making for an interesting experience in the Body Shop parking lot. White Post re-sleeved the Wheel Cylinder on warranty & had it back in my hand in 5 days. Since then I have also replaced ALL the Rubber Hoses. Dry cracked & seeping. Today she will stand on her nose if I step down hard, but the brakes need to be readjusted regularly. I suppose the reason for this note is to say, you got screwed. For $150 I got all 6 Wheel Cylinders & the Master Cylinder bored, sleeved & have a Lifetime Warranty, the car's not mine. Beyond all this is the P-I-A involved in getting Brake Fluid into the Master Cylinder where it's located, conveniently, under the Power Brake Booster. In short, Brake Problems are endemic to these cars because they didn't use the best steel in a very important component & because Water migrates into the Brake Fluid over time. There are much bigger issues in these Brake Systems than whether there is a Single or Dual Pot Master Cylinder but, if there's going to be a failure in 1 of the most important systems in the machine I'd rather have a Dual MC than a Single. At the moment I'm happy to satisfied with the original design but I would switch to a Dual if I went to Disks in the front. Later.
Bob Tittle
1956 DeSoto Firedome Flaming Red & Silver.
Not stock & happy to be that way.
From: "Neil Vedder" <esierraadj@xxxxxxxxxxx> To: "Server, Forward" <L-FORWARDLOOK@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, August 7, 2014 2:33:50 PM Subject: Re: [FWDLK] dual masters-
MY car's low-boy cost $45.00 at a wrecking yard.
Low Boys are not available over the counter at parts houses.
I spent $200.00 in having it be overhauled/bushed...so that it would
not leak.
Then (as seen in my earlier photo) I spent $75.00 to have a shop
install/bend new brake lines, and custom-plumb the brake switch
into the new plumbing system.
$320.00 is not 'cheap', to me...for absolutely NO net performance or
reliability
increase (it just holds brake fluid in it).
(And, the Dualie adds nothing to the overall appearance of the
engine
compartment; at least, Pertronix electronic ignition systems are
completely
hidden from view, under the dissie cap).
Neil Vedder
On 8/7/2014 1:10 PM, Rich Zapata wrote:
HE has spoken !!!!! Now the topic has been decided
!!!!! All shall heed !!!!!
Dave Stragand <dave.stragand@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Actually,
I installed dual masters on both of my Forward Looks,
because it was:
- Cheap
(like $40 for a brand new M/C)
- Easy
to retrofit (bolt-on. If you have power brakes you may need
to grind down the end of the pushrod a little to fit the end
of the piston. I have seen different size rods. Plumbed new
lines down to the T and joined them in. Easy to go back to
stock if desired.
- Finally
able to get rid of the separate plumbing connection /
high failure point of the hydraulic switch by installing a
switch on the pedal.
While
I can see the points about originality, etc – I think safety
items such as a dual M/C, bright headlights & seat belts
are worth being “non-original”. All appear period-correct
to the casual observer.
-Dave
The brake
light switch screws into the front (sometimes at the bottom
orifice) of the OEM M/C.
Installing a dualie is not cheap, quick, or really easy to
retrofit, and includes
a separate plumbing-connection of that switch into the brake's
hydraulic system.
See attached.
On 8/5/2014 8:32 PM, Roger van Hoy wrote:
Ok,
I’ll bite. Where’s the “brake light switch warning
light” on an original ‘57 Dodge’s master cylinder?
AFAIK the brake light hydraulic switch threads into
the front of the master cylinder and any leaking
would be out of the master, not into it. The
parking brake warning light [optional equipment] is
on the emergency brake assembly and is a mechanical
switch.
That
reminds me, our old emergency brakes work marginally
well in an emergency, not just for parking. In 1996
on the way to the DeSoto Nationals in Sacramento a
guy in a ‘56 DeSoto pulled off the freeway at around
60, hit the brakes on the off ramp, they failed, and
he was able to stop the car. [He also got the hard
luck award.]
Sent:
Tuesday, August 05, 2014 9:50 AM
Subject:
Re: [FWDLK] dual masters- was RB 383 cam
And
especially unfortunate because your single pot M/C
had been overhauled
and was 'working' (i.e.: merely holding surplus
brake fluid in it, without leaking).
My car's single-pot failure occurred in 1981,
shortly after I had bought it, and after
it had been dead stored for years, and while not
realizing that all of the various fluid
levels should be checked periodically.
Unbeknownst to me (because I wasn't checking the
brake fluid level) was that a small
amount of fluid was being forced out, past the brake
light switch warning light's
threaded insertion (no teflon tape around it) into
the M/C, every time that the brake
was applied.
Neil Vedder
On
8/5/2014 8:57 AM, Jim wrote:
Or
there's this.... You remove the single mc that
has worked fine for 50 years and ask your
mechanic to install a dual plus disk brakes
cuz "you want to be safe". You get the car
back and it stops fine. 6 months later you
are driving on the freeway in the rain and
traffic is stopped up ahead. You put on the
brakes and the new front flex hose bursts
because it was a little too short and
positioned at too sharp an angle and has
already fatigued. But you still have the rear
brakes... but since you slam on the brakes
because they are barely stopping the car
(without the fronts you only have 20% braking
capacity) the left rear locks up. The car
slides out of control on the wet pavement, you
spin across 3 lanes and into a gas tanker
which bursts into flames. Dozens of people
flee in the ensuing panic, those who don't die
in the fire are run over, the tanker was under
a bridge, which weakened by the fire collapses
cutting off access to a home for the elderly.
Two of the elderly, seeing the melee, have
heart attacks. They die because the ambulance
couldn't get to them because the bridge was
burned down by the tanker. If you'd still had
the single MC on none of this would have
happened... now single masters don't seem so
bad!
Here's
a scenario... you have a perfectly
maintained single master brake
system in your 57 Saratoga, while
trying to tune in your restored AM
radio, you look up while driving and
see its too late! you just ran over
an old guy crossing the street!!! he
flies of the top of the car but his
walker went under and folded and
rolled, and subsequently caught and
tore out your rear flexible
hydraulic line! now you have no
brakes and proceed to broadside a
bus full of illegal immigrants, you
go through the windshield upon
impact due to lack of belts,
airbags, and brakes, the bus flips,
and all the passengers burn to
death, though one good event took
place lightening the burden on
taxpayers, an old man, his walker,
your car, and bodily well being were
compromised! If you had a dual
master, you may have still hit the
old guy, but not the bus... now
single masters don't seem so bad!
-----Original
Message-----
From: Neil Vedder mailto:esierraadj@xxxxxxxxxxx
To: L-FORWARDLOOK mailto:L-FORWARDLOOK@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tue, Aug 5, 2014 3:10 am
Subject: Re: [FWDLK] RB 383 cam
LOL
(not)....if they failed, they
were not properly maintained, or
overhauled, to prevent such
failures from having occurred.
Neil Vedder
On
8/4/2014 4:37 PM, Ray Jones
wrote:
The
idea here is that with
Dual MC, you have 2
brake systems. Not
much trouble to plumb,
using the tubing and
components from a
later year car, it's a
big safety upgrade.
And,
yes, I have had
several MC's fail over
the too many years
I've been driving
these old jewels.
You
said you had a wheel
cylinder fail, giving
you a brake problem.
With a dual system,
you would still have
the other half to get
home on.
A total
upgrade with calipers
and rotors on the
front, and better yet
on the back also is a
real improvement and
brings the car up to
highway cruising
safety standards.
Ray in
Mena, AR
On
Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 5:06
PM, Jim <0000093b5b69d73c-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
I
know it's possible
for brake MC to fail
but in 50 years of
driving I myself
have had brakes fail
only once and it
wasn't the MC, it
was a front wheel
cylinder and I don't
know anyone else who
has ever had a MC
fail. Wear out
enough that they had
to pump the brakes,
yes, but they knew
it and it caused no
problems. It seems
like a silly thing
to worry and obsess
over when you
consider that the
entire old car is a
death trap compared
to todays cars.
Let's
see, 68
Barracuda
Formula S with
dual pot power
disc brakes,
57 Dodge pick
up with single
pot original
brakes, 65
Rambler Marlin
with dual pot
power disc
brakes, and a
59 Rambler
Custom sedan
with single
pot drum
brakes so I
guess we are
on the fence
with this one,
but I can tell
you which ones
I am more
comfortable
driving in
todays
traffic.
Sent:
Monday, August
04, 2014 11:59
AM
Subject:
Re: [FWDLK] RB
383 cam
It
lists ZDDP as
ppm, not
percentage
like
Valvoline’s
website. It’s
only the
15W-50 that’s
got high ZDDP.
Sent:
Sunday, August
03, 2014 5:59
PM
Subject:
Re: [FWDLK] RB
383 cam
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Mopar
Action On-line
- Tech
Questions
HOME
IN PRINT TECH
EXTRAS CONTACT
Tech Question
Robert
Zieller,
Middletown CT,
1970 Dodge
Dart Swinger
340 Hi Rich, I
need to
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r...
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Valvoline
20/50 Racing;
lots of ZDDP,
for me.
And, even,
Hemmings has
gotten into
the act, by
selling
synthetic
(which is
really
over-kill,
IMHO)
ZDDP-loaded
motor oil.
Whether ZDDP
is needed or
not, in a
lightly-used
engine (like
all of ours
are)....it is
'cheap'
insurance and
can not hurt
anything, but
our
pocketbooks---check
Hemmings'
6-pack pricing
(photo
attachment).
Neil Vedder
On
8/3/2014 4:24
PM, Richard
Whelan wrote:
We
use Brad Penn,
made in the
old Kendall
refinery in
Bradford PA.
Similar to
Kendall GT-1
with plenty of
ZDDP. Dick
Sent:
Sunday, August
03, 2014 6:30
PM
Subject:
Re: [FWDLK] RB
383 cam
Another
approach is to
use Valvoline
VR-1 racing
oil; it has
more ZDDP.
However,
a friend
showed me an
article in the
Packard
Pelican or
whatever it is
that says VR-1
doesn’t have
enough
detergent. I
suspect it’s
still more
than oil 50
years ago.
Sent:
Sunday, August
03, 2014 12:16
PM
Subject:
Re: [FWDLK] RB
383 cam
I've
found two easy
ways to get
the ZDDP back
in the oil.
One is to buy
the Redline
Break-In
Additive and
use about 3 oz
of it with
each oil
change. The
other, even
easier, is to
buy a can of
STP, which has
the right
amount of ZDDP
in it, when
you buy the
oil and filter
and put the
STP in along
with the new
oil. The
advantage of
the Redline is
that it's
actually a
little cheaper
per dose and
is easy to
poor. The STP
is thick and
hard to pour.
But the STP is
available
anywhere so
it's pretty
convenient.
Thanks
for the input
guys. I agree
about the
oil. I've
driven the car
a total of
about 10 miles
since buying
it from
another list
member who
also didn't
drive it
during his
ownership I
believe.
There is a
receipt from a
commercial
garage showing
a ring and
bearing job,
but the
receipt has no
date on it.
The inside of
the engine is
very clean and
the oil isn't
bad either so
since that
minor overhaul
it must have
been
reasonably
maintained,
but of course
with low ZDDP
oil like we
are all stuck
with in the
mainstream
oils. I'm
thinking of
using rotella
once I'm back
up and running
since I don't
have a
converter to
get clogged up
with zinc.
Bill
& Kathi
Parker, South
Central
Indiana,
harboring of
bunch of old
and newer
Mopars
On
Sun, Aug 3,
2014 at 2:12
PM, Neil
Vedder <esierraadj@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Oh,
that must be
absolutely
true, because
nobody in the
old car
hobby knows
about the
effects of NOT
having ZDDP in
flat tappet
car engines.
And, of
course, the
ruined cam
shafts render
the car and
its engine
completely
unrepairable
and worthless.
The car
mechanics, in
particular,
hate the
effects of
having to work
on these
damaged
engines.
Neil Vedder
On
8/3/2014 12:05
AM, Dave
Homstad wrote:
Bill,
You
might give
some thought
as to WHY the cam
has developed
3 bad lobes.
Here
is a good
article about
how "OIL IS
KILLING OUR
CARS!!!!!".
http://www.dctra.org/?p=79
Personnally,
I think this
is a plot by
the EPA to get
old cars off
the roads
quicker, by
removing the
ZDDP from our
oils.
Dave
Homstad
56
Dodge D500
On
Sat, Aug 2,
2014 at 6:43
PM, Bill
Parker wrote:
Hello
all, I tore
into the '60
Saratoga
engine today,
an RB 383, and
as I suspected
from the
symptoms, it
has a wiped
camshaft. One
lobe is just a
little
nubbin', and
two others are
clearly half
what they
should be.
Seems like a
simple cam
swap is in
order except
of course for
the small
matter of
early B/RB
lifters and
pushrods being
different
dimensions
from the later
('66 and
later?)
stuff.
>From a
previous
experience
with putting a
cam and lifter
kit into a '65
engine, I
think I recall
that the late
lifters are
taller, and
must use the
late pushrods
to
compensate. I
could have it
backwards, but
in any case, I
think the
solution to
using a late
cam and lifter
kit is using
the late
pushrods too.
I have several
core 440
engines and
I'm thinking,
make a cam
selection, buy
the late style
lifters with
it, and use a
set of the 440
pushrods
(being that
both my '60
383 and the
440's are RB
engines with
the same deck
height).
Comments/cautions/suggestions?
This is not my
hot rod and I
plan to go
with a pretty
mild cam.
Bill
& Kathi
Parker, South
Central
Indiana,
harboring of
bunch of old
and newer
Mopars
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