RE: [Chrysler300] Club care re 'naming' a fake?

[christopher beilby <thelastbestgenius@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

I have been contacted by a couple of other 300 members asking why was I (maybe/actually?) saying Owen Gregg in NZ's 300C 390hp was a fake.
 
I was never saying Owen's car is/was a fake, and I think, hope, that was 100% clear to most? - I said the exact opposite - namely if somone saw it advertised with an auto trans in it, that then did not mean it (then) must be a fake, because it did not have the usual/mandatory manual.
Owen's car is I think indisputably known and accepted by all as a genuine 390hp stick shift car, and all I was trying to say is that because some car, any 300, was seen by some/many 'at sometime' in supposed wrong specification, that does not mean the car/300 was not what it is, nor never built as the factory records (still luckily) state it was built.
 
I am a long way from most/any manual trans 300s, but I believe it was not too uncommon that many 300 manual transmissions were sometimes eventually later replaced with automoatics?  If I am wrong correct me?  And if these manual transmissions are taken out, someone not knowing the car's build history, could then mistakenly later say, if the car was then later re-fitted with a correct factory manual, that this not a factory manual car?!
 
I only mentioned this as some said in the site discussion re the 300F in question, that it (300F)  had been seen in the 80s with an auto, and because it was seen then as an auto, it could not be a factory manual?!
As the asking price was seemingly $1,000,000, I did not wish to see the Club maybe get involved in possible claims a $1,000,000 car sale had been lost/damaged because of what stated on Club site. Whether this possible claim was anywhere true or false.
(All this re any 'claim' is hypothetical - please do not say I said, or am ever saying, it will happen, or am slurring anyone re this !!!)
 
I went on to state in my post I was making no comment re the people or matters involved, and ended saying, if it was known irrefutably the car (300F) was not a known car it was supposed to be, with a known VIN, then the Club maybe need not be so concerned.
 
I hope this clears it up - Owen knows I know his 390hp 300C is genuine, we just comparing manual steering box cast numbers last week - if I made any mistake re Owen, it is my spelling of his surname. I only chose his car, because I thought it so well known as genuine to near everyone, plus Owen mentioning it had later had an auto put in it, but that despite this, still no one would doubt it ever was not genuine, just because of that 'ever so brief wrong auto trans fitment' re what was original!!
Plus it is so widely known Owen is putting the car back to original, which it was for virtually all it's life.
 
I hope this clears any misunderstanding up - the more you try to explain some things, sometimes it just confuses more.
If I have offended anyone, I am quite happy to end my often too long posts on this site - never mind the near mind numbing heat lately, I maybe trying to do too much in too short a time lately re my 300 project, and my judgement, re this, overseas and US Member 'asked for local news, etc , comments', perhaps better not on the site. Other Australians are thankfully more normal, use way less words, than me.
 
Christopher 



To: thelastbestgenius@xxxxxxxxxxx; chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx: lettercars@xxxxxxxxxxx: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 11:37:06 -0500Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] Club care re 'naming' a fake?



Chris and All:Chris, I must take issue with your use of Owen's 390HP 300C as an example for your argument that a car could be considered a "fake" if not returned to the way it was advertised. At least I think that is what you were trying to say. In fact, I did not follow your reasoning at all on that. That is not my point, though. Owen's car was produced at the Chrysler Jefferson Assy Plant equipped with the special Performance Package which included the 390HP engine and 3 speed manual transmission. That FACT is documented by the microfilm with the special camshaft notation, and later by Chrysler engineer Mike Kollins' letter including Owen's 300C VIN in a recall for the 390HP camshaft replacement. There is NO DOUBT about Owen's car, nor should there be.The 300F (which I am getting tired of discussing, as I am sure is the case with many members) on the other hand has not a shred of evidence it was once equipped with a 4 speed. It has been listed in our Club records for over 20 years by the same owner without ANY mention of any special equipment, even though the owner had acquired a genuine 300F Special later. My concern and reason for this email is that your comments regarding Owen's car could be interpreted in a totally inappropriate way.300ly, Gil CunninghamTallahassee, FLIn a message dated 1/31/2009 9:59:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, thelastbestgenius@xxxxxxxxxxx writes:If I know a car was built from something it never was, I regard that as a fake, will call it that if appropriate. (Like a 6 cylinder Chevelle body car passed of as a factory 454 LS-6 SS 4 speed car, is to me a 'fake'.)However since posting my bit about fakes just earlier, I am back inside out of the noonday heat, and have thought about the current 300F, that I think some are getting close to calling fake on the Club Website, and perhaps maybe caution for the Club is appropriate?!And I say this mindful not that long ago the Club was apparently approached to give rough valuations on some 300s that belonged to the widow of a 300 Member?!This matter I believe may have turned a bit unfortunate for the Club having only some very small involvement in a situation where perhaps the advice, valuations given, (supposedly from the Club?!), favoured people who I believe acted only honourably in purchasing the two 300 convertibles, but has now been seen to be so unusual, perhaops favourable to the purchasors, that it is now a feature story in Old Cars Weekly, this story being drawn to our attention by a nearby Member on this site just a short time ago?!And now we have another perhaps 'Club tread with care' situation, if we as a Club endorse calling a 300F convertible (outright fake/whatever) that has maybe/likely had some specifications maybe changed?!Why -well consider for eg - I think Owen Gregg has a 300C 390 hp car that at some later stage had a torqueflight put in, yet was/is a true manual car. And yet if this car had been advertised as a (then) auto before Owen bought it, and he put a manual back in it, that would not be correct grounds for calling it a fake?!So all I maybe suggest that the Club needs more than knowing the now manual 300F convert had an auto in it when seen by some Members in the 80s to now state it 'was never a manual' before that?! And that that also makes the complete car as it is now "fake"? I am not suggesting anything re any of the people or claims flying, just that maybe the Club not get too involved re using word 'fake' unless it irrefutably proven?! If however the seller is trying to represent it ONLY as exact other car that has a known VIN, then the Club maybe not need be so careful?I have a car with a handwritten 3 page owner's history, that now near 30 years later people question some of what was written in it, and resultingly I have recently backed away from claiming it (irrefutably 100%) true. And yet when I find my car has a 6V supercharger boost solenoid, and have read on a page in this handwritten history, that they owned an earlier 300, then it makes me think maybe what they wrote is indeed true. Otherwise who would use what I believe is the 6V switch off their former 1955 300, which were 6Vs, in trying 'sometime whenever' to bogus up a supposed supercharged new 12V 1957 300C? Surely the odds of this happening beggar reality?! ( Yet if late 1956, they only having maybe 3 weeks over Christmas holiday period to get the car finished/sorted before Daytona, re-using their old 6V switch makes perfect sense, rather than finding/getting complete new 12V one in time they had, in Christmas backblocks of Wisconsin? )As I said before, it would pay the Club, or someone authorised by the Club, to try and document every odd 300, be it 390hp 300C, 300F short rams, any other rare more sought after 300, plus anything re any Factory work/Involvement, and where and when this may have taken place?!Keep what found secret (but on Club record) if desired to prevent fakes, but have some system of stating what, if the Club is to be involved on this site, elsewhere, in naming things 'fake' ?!Christopher -now well way more than enough from me on this topic__________________________________________________________Get rid of those unwanted christmas presents! 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