Re: [Chrysler300] authenticity re 300s ??!!

[lettercars@xxxxxxx]

Christopher and All:
Perhaps now would be a good time to put a copy of the Judging Guidelines in  
this space.  Chris, you will see that some of your questions/assertions are  
answered, although, to my knowledge, you have never asked anyone for details of 
 our concours procedures.  (Somewhat understandably, as we have not---and  
will not in the foreseeable future----have one near you.)  However, if  one is 
to comment in this forum, one should be aware of the facts of the subject  as 
much as possible. 
 
Our Judging form has evolved over the years into a very comprehensive  
document.  Its detail is one reason it takes 2 1/2 "Judge Hours" to  complete a 
vehicle.  We try not to miss anything.  With that kind of  time requirement, 
concours size is naturally limited.  Judging is strictly  based on how the car came 
from the factory, and will be for as long as I have  anything to say about 
it.  As our President, George, pointed out in his  recent email, members are 
naturally free to do anything they want to their  cars----just don't be expected 
to be rewarded in concours.  Thankfully,  most 300 Club, International members 
seem to prefer their cars generally as  Mother Chrysler originally intended, 
at least by the look of those  that show up at the meets.  Some entity MUST' 
however, be responsible  for Chrysler 300 Lettercar Mark authenticity, and that 
entity is  us.  We are most fortunate to have the microfilm record of our  
lettercars thru the 300K for reference.  (Chrysler Historical has the  300L)
 
There are several ways to find out information as to what is correct.   One 
way that used to be more common in the "good ole days" was to just enter the  
car in judging.  I think I appreciated that the most!  Take one's  lumps, 
improve the car, and try again.  With professional restos becoming  more the norm, 
having one's car judged for info is increasingly rare.  We  have, also, a 
number of Model Year Consultants who have agreed to give of their  time and 
knowledge to help those with restoration questions.  Probably the  best source of 
"right" is the car itself.  Even the most "remuddled" 300  still has many many 
original parts.  Then, there is the Club web site,  which contains much good 
information on restoration, as well as on those  "improvements" that an owner 
might want, but which would be deductible in  concours.   Your point about a 
single source of information for  each year is well taken, and the Club is 
pursuing that as well.   It must be noted that ANY such document will, of necessity, 
still have missing  info.  A vehicle is complicated.  I still remember, way 
back when I  was at Chrysler in the non-computer age---a vehicle's "product 
description"  required MANY loose leaf volumes! 
 
Well, I have said as much as I want to on this subject, and probably more  
than many of you wanted to hear!!  For those interested, below are the  
Guidelines for Judges and Entrants.  (Hope they come out ok on the list  server 
format.)
300ly, Gil Cunningham
 
                  CHRYSLER 300 CLUB INTERNATIONAL, INC. CONCOURS D’  ELEGANCE
PROCEDURES AND GUIDELINES FOR ENTRANTS AND JUDGES
 
1.  Only Chrysler 300 letter series cars and the 1970 Hurst 300 are  eligible 
for concours competition  and awards.  Rebodied, re-VINed, or  cloned cars 
will NOT be judged.  Entered vehicles must be owned by members  of the Chrysler 
300 Club International, Inc.
 
2.  Entrants must complete the requested information at the top of the  
judging form and place it under the windshield wiper.  After judging is  completed, 
the form will be picked up.
 
3.  The owner, entrant, or a designated representative must remain  with the 
car until judging has been completed.  Judges cannot assume proper  operation 
of vehicle components and will deduct points accordingly if no  responsible 
person is present when required.
 
4.  During their inspection, judges are obligated to avoid any  careless 
procedures which could result in damage to a valuable   automobile.  In most 
cases, the entrant should be asked to operate the  various vehicle accessories.
 
5.  The burden of proof that any non-authentic appearing items (e.g.  special 
paint, unavailable accessories, etc.) were originally on the car from  the 
factory rests with the entrant.  If inadequate, or no evidence of  authenticity 
can be presented, the appropriate points will be deducted.
 
6.  Entrants should not engage in unnecessarily lengthy conversation  with 
judges.  Restraint in this area will speed the judging and reduce any  semblance 
of partiality.  Harassment of the judges will result in  disqualification.
 
7.  Judges will not be permitted to judge their own car if it is in  
competition for any award or seniors qualification.  Every effort will be  made, 
however, to assign judges to classes in which their car is not  entered.
 
8.  First, Second, and Third place awards will be presented in each of  the 
six classes, providing a minimum of 600 points is  achieved.    The high point 
car in Classes 1-4 and Seniors with a  minimum of 900 points will be awarded a 
Best of Show trophy donated by Chrysler  Corporation.  This trophy will be 
relinquished at the next Concours or  after one year, to be replaced with a 
small permanent award.  “Best of  Show” winners will remain eligible for the same 
award at succeeding meets.   All winner’s names will be inscribed on the 
traveling trophy.
 
9.  Cars achieving the combination of 900 or more points and   first place in 
their class will be placed in Senior Division where first,  second, and third 
place awards will also be presented.  There are no model  year class 
distinctions in the Senior Division---all years compete against each  other.  Senior 
Division cars will not be permitted to return to Junior  Division.
 
10.  Any constructive criticism concerning the concours procedure is  
appreciated.  Please present comments, in writing, to the Concours  Standards 
Committee Chairperson.
 
11.  Completed judging forms will be retained and become the property  of the 
Club.  Copies will be made available to the owner upon request to  the Club 
office.
 

G. A. Cunningham
Concours Standards Committee Chairman
Rev.  6/08



In a message dated 3/14/2009 8:22:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
thelastbestgenius@xxxxxxxxxxx writes:


As  usual I speak from afar, so excuse me if I do not fully understand. This  
likely will not be my last post, but it soon maybe my last for a while, so  
either delete now, or read on.



Normally one would asume if one  is trying to return a 300 to how when brand 
new it left the Factory or  Dealer,

(and that already opens a 300 can of worms - like which is more  
correct/relevant - namely which is more important??!!  The car that was  made, or the car 
that was supplied/used??!!),

then one would assume it  should be as clse as possible to correct?



This happens with  Shelby Cobras, early 50s Ferrari, rarer early Jaguar, and 
no doubt Dusenbergs,  pre WWII finer Cadillacs, etc..



And so then we come to Ron  Water's perhaps good question, and the 300 Club 
Judging Criteria - such as  tailight lenses.  And about all this - what is said 
'300 Judgingwise'  correct, and what is said not - I know nothing.



But it suprised  me, in restoring one of my 300Cs:

1) that there seemingly is much still  to be documented in one 
form/publication, where all that should by now be  known, is recorded, publically available?!

2) that there is seemingly  no well pointed out 'public list' of what is 
allowed re Club Judging, that is  non factory, or should that be 'non dealer' !??

(ie what if a 300 shows  what was not a factory microfish spec, but is maybe 
a Dealer add on?! - or  worse - a later owner, add on??!!  (such as how many 
300Cs left Dealers  with two/both outside rear view mirrors?!! Personally the 
now so common two  mirrors is OK/fine with me,, but how may this be viewed in 
20-50 years - is it  important??!!)))



To me, any 300 if it as owner wishes, and not  harmfully modified, then that 
is a 300, and not to be looked on with  scorn.  I have one 300C I drive that 
willl never (maybe?) be a show  car.  But then if one wishes to do a 300C 
correct, it suprises me I yet  to learn who has the really 100% definitive list of 
how one should be?!.   And to me if one is going to say Chrysler Dealer 
supplied Glo Brite lenses  that have different markings lose points (maybe correctly 
so, if they  unavaible while cars still in production/new?) that list should 
also include  what special Chrysler marked nuts and bolts that hold the car 
together are  correct, and ALL items that are correct Chrysler date marked 
should be used. (  Factory bolts in some, many, key areas may be structural, so 
using generic  made in China poorer quality steel bolts maybe not safe, never 
mind not  right??!!)



Otherwise it is double standards to say that  particular lens has wrong 
letters at base, yet for eg not look at say the date  stampings on brake booster 
face plate, to see if it is not maybe also a later  item?! Both are just as 
visible, so why pick on a lens, yet not the other  part?



I am not saying a 300 is wrong because it may have later  parts, just that if 
someone really wants to bother doing a 300 that little bit  better 'correct', 
that at least 300 members have a best available guide to  help.  Plus - as 
with Ferrai, etc -  a car judged correct, should be  correct?!!  OK allow wrong 
modern tyres, other hard to get items, but  surely document, award differently 
if desired, if a car uses ALL/more correct  parts?!  (this may be seen as 
extreme say 20 years ago, but with 300  values for some 300 models way higher 
today, there a need for higher knowledge  of what correct?!)



In doing my 300C recently I have found  additional detail/questions re 300C 
'originality re factory build', yet the  Club author of the supposed  (and 
likely) best current 300C guide, seems  somewhat 'prickly' sometimes re some 
matters if they not his exact  'viewpoint/whatever'?, never mind has published in 
his 300C handbook for years  wrong detail re my supercharged 300C, otherwise I 
would have passed all I have  found onto him, but from his zero reply re first 
few I wrote him about, it  seems he does not want to know, so I raise it here 
for other 300 members to  suggest a better future solution, that if anyone 
cares?  And this is no  comment/reflection re him - the Club is lucky he put his 
time and effort into  publishing what he has.



My Membership comes due soon, and so it  might be timely I may give all/any 
of you bored by my often overlong posts a  break as I let it lapse for a period 
before renewing at some later time, plus  while I wait and see if the wrong 
entry that has gone out for years in this  semi 300 Club publication publishes 
a correction?! 



Until now I  chose to ignore this somewhat Club endorsed 'wrong publication', 
but I feel it  time that the author either put up why he knows he is correct 
re what he has  said for years, or otherwise retracts??!  And likewise, he has 
again  chosen to refuse to respond.



I will let my Membership matter go  a few months - maybe he may be better 
placed re any reply, plus those who feel  their view is the only view/way/rule if 
that is how it is?!  The Club  should be about sharing the wealth of 
knowledge that 300 owners have/find,  putting it on paper for all. That is how the 
Shelby register has  worked/grown/survived/prospered for over 30 years.  It stuns 
me how  little is on public record re the pre 300H 300s, while so many 
menmbers know  so much that each year becomes more threatened to be lost forever? 
Why - who  is afraid of it all being out there - who wants to nick that  
special/rare/super low miles 300 - what crazy/wrong reason exists for not  doing it?! 
 Or does it just need someone being appointed to start it  all?!  Chrysler's 
1955 - early 60s 300 story is pretty special, why not  try to get it written 
down before so much more of it is lost - plus get real  serious re 300 resto 
guides for all years if it felt appropriate?!  



There are many many true great 300 Members, the 300Club  International is a 
credit to those serving Officers who love and wish to see  endure 300s, and I 
am planning to get to the US later this year, hopefully do  the big drive 
around, and I look forward to meeting those I have got to  know,



Christopher Australia - ps light rain just last days has  maybe totally 
finished fires, fire risk, for this summer. Drought still on  over most of southern 
part of nation though.



To:  wgraefen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
CC: chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From:  ronbo97@xxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 13:40:09 -0400
Subject: Re:  [Chrysler300] Re: OEM vs. Glo-Brite






>They said  the '57 Chrysler was the ONLY Chrysler specific tail lens they 
>had  ever made though they had made numerous Plymouth and Dodge lenses.  
>Part of the reason they made it was that the factory supply of OEM  lenses 
>from Auto-Lite was fairly quickly used up by Mopar service  parts and they 
>were asked to supply Mopar and they did. This is why  you will find 
>Glo-Brite "CY-3" and "CY-4" lenses in Mopar boxes with  Mopar packaging.

So based on this information, it sounds like Glo-Brite  was a vendor for 
Chrysler and the CY-3/4 lenses would/should be considered  OEM correct even 
by the club's concours standards. Any thoughts  ?

Ron  









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