Re: [Chrysler300] Battery/Starter-300F

["Ron Waters" <ronbo97@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

WOW ! This guy is freakin' Brilliant ! And he does an excellent job of 
explaining things. This email is definitely a keeper for neophytes like me, 
and should be posted somewhere on the website.

Just to add my 2¢, to rule in or rule out the starter, I would swap out the 
existing one for another from the same year car that is known to work 
properly.

Ron


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jean-Yves Chouinard" <jymopar@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 11:51 AM
Subject: Fw: [Chrysler300] Battery/Starter-300F


> Hi to everyone.
> I'm forwarding this tread to the list server as it pertains to Tom's 
> starter problems. It's from Club Member John Grady. He is an electrical 
> engineer.
> Jean-Yves Chouinard.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: John Grady
> To: 'Jean-Yves Chouinard'
> Cc: Ed Cornish ; Keith Simons
> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 11:28 AM
> Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] Battery/Starter-300F
>
>
> Hi,J-Y ;
>
>
>
> Maybe I can help. As an EE ,and PE, I have a perspective on it. Maybe you 
> can pass this on...
>
>
>
> First the starter as designed started thousands if not millions of B 
> blocks and hemi's over the years , (at 10 below zero, too! ) and does not 
> need redesign or new windings of heavier wire. Heavier wire draws more 
> current, which drops the battery volts even more, and needs the same # of 
> turns to get the same magnetism, which is what makes the force. The force 
> is proportional to turns, as well as to current. As more turns of larger 
> wire will not fit in the same space , it is the wrong way to go and may 
> make it worse. The resistance of the wire does not change or deteriorate 
> over time; it does increase a little when hot, but that is normal and was 
> accounted for when the unit was designed. Anecdotal talk of how heavier 
> wire improved things has more to do with just rebuilding the starter , new 
> brushes etc. Heavier wire means an 8 volt starter is now used on 12v; pros 
> and cons to that. Works great , fast spin on a nice warm day... may not 
> turn at all when cold.
>
>
>
> You can separate this into two problems1) the engine is hard to turn 2) 
> the starter is not providing full force . It is critical to CLEARLY find 
> out which it is (!) before doing anything, or you waste money and time.
>
>
>
>
>
> Hard to turn, but starter OK,  is usually timing too advanced (distributor 
> weights did not return, or wrongly timed, or "turned up' timing in pursuit 
> of performance-this has a characteristic cranking sound, quick turn 
> followed by almost stall at TDC, repeat .) , a mechanical bind in starter 
> drive (tolerance of starter pinion to ring gear-it must not jam-loosen 
> starter and move back etc; damaged or off center ring gear.) or something 
> in the engine, transmission  or belt drive is dragging(unlikely, if car 
> idles and runs OK). A too tight piston or ring fit in a rebuilt engine can 
> REALLY aggravate things when hot... If starter is good, and you measure 
> starter current draw, it will go way up when hot if engine bind is loading 
> it down. Current draw on a good starter is always proportional to how hard 
> it is to turn, if starter and battery are OK. . So, you really need to 
> know that number; you must have a starter ammeter to say anything about 
> what is wrong.
>
>
>
> Second problem, not enough force from starter, is actually easy to 
> troubleshoot. The service manual provides a starter no load speed and 
> 'locked rotor " torque value...do what it says,  to find out the 
> story! --and sometimes gives an ampere draw at locked rotor and free spin. 
> You do need a starter ammeter;  !!! check the draw IN the car is job # 1 
> !!!, while cranking hot and cold and measure battery volts at the same 
> time. The battery should stay at 10.5-11  or more , no matter what you do; 
> if not, battery is in question..most common problem, or a cheap toy 
> battery. Winter storage allowing it to die and then a spring charge cuts 
> 50% out of a battery; a carbon load pile can find that.(Harbor tool)  . 
> Always buy batteries by weight, not sales bullshit; the bigger / heavier 
> the better; store inside on wood surface (no concrete) and trickle charge 
> once a month for a 24 hour day. Leaving trickle charger on , even fancy 
> 'self turn off" ones, can wreck battery by evaporating the water. . Cables 
> must be heavy gauge, in good shape and tight. Cheap thin cables loose 
> power, but any problems in cables or ends will be accompanied by getting 
> hot when trying to start for extended times. Feel the ends for heat after 
> cranking for a minute or so.  It is not generally necessary to scrape 
> paint etc, as bolt has no paint and current goes through that side into 
> block too. ..but it cannot hurt.
>
>
>
> The free spin test in service manual checks for shorts in armature, as it 
> will not rev up to high speed with a shorted armature; you also can check 
> resistance from commutator bars to shaft, should be an open circuit...most 
> shorts are from winding to shaft or core, but turn to turn shorts happen 
> too...and slow down rev test.  Test field winding for shorts to frame too. 
> There is a free spin rated current, it should be within 5-10%.The locked 
> rotor test is a little tricky to do, but checks torque output vs. current 
> draw; it draws very high current for that, which will find bad brushes or 
> open windings in armature. Worn brushes imply a lower spring pressure, and 
> I have seen brushes 'frozen" to the brush holders by long storage and so 
> not pressing on the commutator; that leads to low torque and bad burning 
> which destroys the commutator. Always free up brushes in slides, check 
> them when rebuilding a stored car( generator, too) . Problems with 
> armature can usually be found visually..a shorted turn will be burned, or 
> commutator burned etc. = look carefully.
>
>
>
> In the realm of weird things, I had a situation like this, it turned out 
> to be the wire lead attachment  / big bolt on the starter frame of a 60 
> Dodge. It  was OK and tight on the cable, but the nut UNDER  the lug was 
> loose, (!) which allowed the stud to move sideways in the steel and touch 
> the starter frame, (sometimes......!)drawing huge current and barely 
> turning,, intermittently. This, from factory. Loose starter bearings or 
> off center ends can let armature touch field poles, but only when starter 
> is on, magnetism pulls it sideways.  --that will totally kill output 
> torque.
>
>
>
> New battery, generator , regulator , battery cables etc did nothing on 
> that 60 Dodge, and a jump would start it , deflecting blame from the 
> starter. Correctly tightening the under nut fixed it. So, I empathize.... 
> Drove me crazy. Starter Ammeter is what found it. How much the headlights 
> dim at cranking is a poor man's ammeter!
>
>
>
> The solenoid MUST make the main contact solidly and be correctly 
> assembled, as it will spin weakly while engaging, but full torque doe not 
> come until solenoid shorts out the pull in winding , which happens after 
> pinion is almost all the way in. Tolerances in this are critical, someone 
> may have rebuilt wrong. There is no need to run a ground right to the 
> starter, as the engine block has a very low electrical resistance. In fact 
> shorter, heavier  cables and a big fresh battery matter most .
>
>
>
> The thinking should be: the stock setup is fine, something is wrong 
> somewhere..they knew what they were doing. . At a bare minimum , you need 
> a starter ammeter, and a voltmeter..and compare with a good car. 300F does 
> not crank easily, but stock works fine.
>
>
>
> Hope this helps,
>
>
>
> John Grady
>
>
>
> PS, gear reduction or "geared mini starters" non stock are better, but 
> original is fine too. They are better as they have permanent magnets, no 
> field winding, gear down gives it more torque at same current draw.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Jean-Yves Chouinard [mailto:jymopar@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 6:38 AM
> To: John Grady
> Subject: Fw: [Chrysler300] Battery/Starter-300F
>
>
>
> This is the email from Tom Cox about starter problems...
>
> J.Y.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
>
> From: Thomas Cox
>
> To: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; parts@xxxxxxxxxx
>
> Cc: donbelton313@xxxxxxxxx
>
> Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 10:14 PM
>
> Subject: [Chrysler300] Battery/Starter-300F
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks to the many folks that have given advice. A summary of the 
> suggestions:
>
> 1. Make certain the ground connection is to clean metal giving a good 
> ground.
> 2. Have the rebuilder use heavier winding materials.
> 3. Ground the battery to the starter (with clean, unpainted connection).
> 4. Cool the starter with water to see if a reduced temperature makes the 
> problem lessen to confirm the starter problem.
>
> After all these, I contacted Jeff Carter who has bailed me out of many 
> difficult issues with the 300F build. He indicated, in agreement with all 
> the above, that it is likely a starter problem that may be due to multiple 
> starter rebuilds (or just age) where the field windings have deteriorated 
> to the point that they have too much resistance and are not funcioning 
> properly and when the starter gets hot, it does not provide the electrical 
> boost needed. That, and the probability that the windings of the armature 
> are not the heavier-duty variety. He no longer knows of a shop that has 
> the knowledge or the parts to do a proper rebuild with new field windings 
> and armature rewinding.
>
> Do any of our members have a starter shop that has this experience and 
> parts to do a complete and proper rebuild? It seems that may be the best 
> solution to the problem at hand. I imagine other folks are having, or will 
> have, a similar need. Louie Barrie indicated that he had a fellow with a 
> great deal of knowledge about these things. Any leads would be greatly 
> appreciated.
>
> Tom Cox
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
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