Re: Fw: [Chrysler300] Battery/Starter-300F

[Keith Boonstra <kboonstra@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Well, couldn't John Grady have misspelled a word or missed a comma - 
even on purpose - to make himself seem at least a little mortal?

On Amazon Kindle you gotta pay to download a book.  This one comes free.

Thanks, John.

Keith Boonstra

-

Jean-Yves Chouinard wrote:
>  
>
> Hi to everyone.
> I'm forwarding this tread to the list server as it pertains to Tom's 
> starter problems. It's from Club Member John Grady. He is an 
> electrical engineer.
> Jean-Yves Chouinard.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Grady
> To: 'Jean-Yves Chouinard'
> Cc: Ed Cornish ; Keith Simons
> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 11:28 AM
> Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] Battery/Starter-300F
>
> Hi,J-Y ;
>
> Maybe I can help. As an EE ,and PE, I have a perspective on it. Maybe 
> you can pass this on...
>
> First the starter as designed started thousands if not millions of B 
> blocks and hemi's over the years , (at 10 below zero, too! ) and does 
> not need redesign or new windings of heavier wire. Heavier wire draws 
> more current, which drops the battery volts even more, and needs the 
> same # of turns to get the same magnetism, which is what makes the 
> force. The force is proportional to turns, as well as to current. As 
> more turns of larger wire will not fit in the same space , it is the 
> wrong way to go and may make it worse. The resistance of the wire does 
> not change or deteriorate over time; it does increase a little when 
> hot, but that is normal and was accounted for when the unit was 
> designed. Anecdotal talk of how heavier wire improved things has more 
> to do with just rebuilding the starter , new brushes etc. Heavier wire 
> means an 8 volt starter is now used on 12v; pros and cons to that. 
> Works great , fast spin on a nice warm day... may not turn at all when 
> cold.
>
> You can separate this into two problems1) the engine is hard to turn 
> 2) the starter is not providing full force . It is critical to CLEARLY 
> find out which it is (!) before doing anything, or you waste money and 
> time.
>
> Hard to turn, but starter OK, is usually timing too advanced 
> (distributor weights did not return, or wrongly timed, or "turned up' 
> timing in pursuit of performance-this has a characteristic cranking 
> sound, quick turn followed by almost stall at TDC, repeat .) , a 
> mechanical bind in starter drive (tolerance of starter pinion to ring 
> gear-it must not jam-loosen starter and move back etc; damaged or off 
> center ring gear.) or something in the engine, transmission or belt 
> drive is dragging(unlikely, if car idles and runs OK). A too tight 
> piston or ring fit in a rebuilt engine can REALLY aggravate things 
> when hot... If starter is good, and you measure starter current draw, 
> it will go way up when hot if engine bind is loading it down. Current 
> draw on a good starter is always proportional to how hard it is to 
> turn, if starter and battery are OK. . So, you really need to know 
> that number; you must have a starter ammeter to say anything about 
> what is wrong.
>
> Second problem, not enough force from starter, is actually easy to 
> troubleshoot. The service manual provides a starter no load speed and 
> 'locked rotor " torque value...do what it says, to find out the story! 
> --and sometimes gives an ampere draw at locked rotor and free spin. 
> You do need a starter ammeter; !!! check the draw IN the car is job # 
> 1 !!!, while cranking hot and cold and measure battery volts at the 
> same time. The battery should stay at 10.5-11 or more , no matter what 
> you do; if not, battery is in question..most common problem, or a 
> cheap toy battery. Winter storage allowing it to die and then a spring 
> charge cuts 50% out of a battery; a carbon load pile can find 
> that.(Harbor tool) . Always buy batteries by weight, not sales 
> bullshit; the bigger / heavier the better; store inside on wood 
> surface (no concrete) and trickle charge once a month for a 24 hour 
> day. Leaving trickle charger on , even fancy 'self turn off" ones, can 
> wreck battery by evaporating the water. . Cables must be heavy gauge, 
> in good shape and tight. Cheap thin cables loose power, but any 
> problems in cables or ends will be accompanied by getting hot when 
> trying to start for extended times. Feel the ends for heat after 
> cranking for a minute or so. It is not generally necessary to scrape 
> paint etc, as bolt has no paint and current goes through that side 
> into block too. ..but it cannot hurt.
>
> The free spin test in service manual checks for shorts in armature, as 
> it will not rev up to high speed with a shorted armature; you also can 
> check resistance from commutator bars to shaft, should be an open 
> circuit...most shorts are from winding to shaft or core, but turn to 
> turn shorts happen too...and slow down rev test. Test field winding 
> for shorts to frame too. There is a free spin rated current, it should 
> be within 5-10%.The locked rotor test is a little tricky to do, but 
> checks torque output vs. current draw; it draws very high current for 
> that, which will find bad brushes or open windings in armature. Worn 
> brushes imply a lower spring pressure, and I have seen brushes 
> 'frozen" to the brush holders by long storage and so not pressing on 
> the commutator; that leads to low torque and bad burning which 
> destroys the commutator. Always free up brushes in slides, check them 
> when rebuilding a stored car( generator, too) . Problems with armature 
> can usually be found visually..a shorted turn will be burned, or 
> commutator burned etc. = look carefully.
>
> In the realm of weird things, I had a situation like this, it turned 
> out to be the wire lead attachment / big bolt on the starter frame of 
> a 60 Dodge. It was OK and tight on the cable, but the nut UNDER the 
> lug was loose, (!) which allowed the stud to move sideways in the 
> steel and touch the starter frame, (sometimes......!)drawing huge 
> current and barely turning,, intermittently. This, from factory. Loose 
> starter bearings or off center ends can let armature touch field 
> poles, but only when starter is on, magnetism pulls it sideways. 
> --that will totally kill output torque.
>
> New battery, generator , regulator , battery cables etc did nothing on 
> that 60 Dodge, and a jump would start it , deflecting blame from the 
> starter. Correctly tightening the under nut fixed it. So, I 
> empathize.... Drove me crazy. Starter Ammeter is what found it. How 
> much the headlights dim at cranking is a poor man's ammeter!
>
> The solenoid MUST make the main contact solidly and be correctly 
> assembled, as it will spin weakly while engaging, but full torque doe 
> not come until solenoid shorts out the pull in winding , which happens 
> after pinion is almost all the way in. Tolerances in this are 
> critical, someone may have rebuilt wrong. There is no need to run a 
> ground right to the starter, as the engine block has a very low 
> electrical resistance. In fact shorter, heavier cables and a big fresh 
> battery matter most .
>
> The thinking should be: the stock setup is fine, something is wrong 
> somewhere..they knew what they were doing. . At a bare minimum , you 
> need a starter ammeter, and a voltmeter..and compare with a good car. 
> 300F does not crank easily, but stock works fine.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> John Grady
>
> PS, gear reduction or "geared mini starters" non stock are better, but 
> original is fine too. They are better as they have permanent magnets, 
> no field winding, gear down gives it more torque at same current draw.
>
> From: Jean-Yves Chouinard [mailto:jymopar@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> <mailto:jymopar%40nb.sympatico.ca>]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 6:38 AM
> To: John Grady
> Subject: Fw: [Chrysler300] Battery/Starter-300F
>
> This is the email from Tom Cox about starter problems...
>
> J.Y.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Thomas Cox
>
> To: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com> 
> ; parts@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:parts%40jcauto.com>
>
> Cc: donbelton313@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:donbelton313%40yahoo.com>
>
> Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 10:14 PM
>
> Subject: [Chrysler300] Battery/Starter-300F
>
> Thanks to the many folks that have given advice. A summary of the 
> suggestions:
>
> 1. Make certain the ground connection is to clean metal giving a good 
> ground.
> 2. Have the rebuilder use heavier winding materials.
> 3. Ground the battery to the starter (with clean, unpainted connection).
> 4. Cool the starter with water to see if a reduced temperature makes 
> the problem lessen to confirm the starter problem.
>
> After all these, I contacted Jeff Carter who has bailed me out of many 
> difficult issues with the 300F build. He indicated, in agreement with 
> all the above, that it is likely a starter problem that may be due to 
> multiple starter rebuilds (or just age) where the field windings have 
> deteriorated to the point that they have too much resistance and are 
> not funcioning properly and when the starter gets hot, it does not 
> provide the electrical boost needed. That, and the probability that 
> the windings of the armature are not the heavier-duty variety. He no 
> longer knows of a shop that has the knowledge or the parts to do a 
> proper rebuild with new field windings and armature rewinding.
>
> Do any of our members have a starter shop that has this experience and 
> parts to do a complete and proper rebuild? It seems that may be the 
> best solution to the problem at hand. I imagine other folks are 
> having, or will have, a similar need. Louie Barrie indicated that he 
> had a fellow with a great deal of knowledge about these things. Any 
> leads would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Tom Cox
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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> 


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