RE: [Chrysler300] Battery/Starter-300F

["Bob Jasinski" <rpjasin@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Very good information from John Grady, thanks very much for posting Jean,
this is very helpful information.  I would just like to make a few comments
though, if I may.

 

If there was only one (non-gear reduction) starter available,  why did my
rebuilder tell me I had a light duty winding in my starter, and then offer
to obtain and subsequently install the heavy duty version in my starter?

 

Why did the problem go away once the newly rebuilt starter was installed?  I
changed nothing else but the starter.

 

Why does the 1961 parts book show two starters?  Shown is a p/n 1889100 for
the 318, and the 1889200 for the larger engines.

 

For troubleshooting purposes, the AEA Tune-up spec sheet shows the Chrysler
starter, p/n 1889200 Free Running Speed current draw @ 78 amps max 11.0
volts; Lock Torque (stalled) current draw @ 350 max amps, 4.0 volts.  This
information may help with diagnosing the problem.

 

300ly,

 

Bob J 

 

From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Jean-Yves Chouinard
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 8:52 AM
To: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Fw: [Chrysler300] Battery/Starter-300F

 

  

Hi to everyone.
I'm forwarding this tread to the list server as it pertains to Tom's starter
problems. It's from Club Member John Grady. He is an electrical engineer.
Jean-Yves Chouinard.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: John Grady 
To: 'Jean-Yves Chouinard' 
Cc: Ed Cornish ; Keith Simons 
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 11:28 AM
Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] Battery/Starter-300F

Hi,J-Y ; 

Maybe I can help. As an EE ,and PE, I have a perspective on it. Maybe you
can pass this on...

First the starter as designed started thousands if not millions of B blocks
and hemi's over the years , (at 10 below zero, too! ) and does not need
redesign or new windings of heavier wire. Heavier wire draws more current,
which drops the battery volts even more, and needs the same # of turns to
get the same magnetism, which is what makes the force. The force is
proportional to turns, as well as to current. As more turns of larger wire
will not fit in the same space , it is the wrong way to go and may make it
worse. The resistance of the wire does not change or deteriorate over time;
it does increase a little when hot, but that is normal and was accounted for
when the unit was designed. Anecdotal talk of how heavier wire improved
things has more to do with just rebuilding the starter , new brushes etc.
Heavier wire means an 8 volt starter is now used on 12v; pros and cons to
that. Works great , fast spin on a nice warm day... may not turn at all when
cold.

You can separate this into two problems1) the engine is hard to turn 2) the
starter is not providing full force . It is critical to CLEARLY find out
which it is (!) before doing anything, or you waste money and time.

Hard to turn, but starter OK, is usually timing too advanced (distributor
weights did not return, or wrongly timed, or "turned up' timing in pursuit
of performance-this has a characteristic cranking sound, quick turn followed
by almost stall at TDC, repeat .) , a mechanical bind in starter drive
(tolerance of starter pinion to ring gear-it must not jam-loosen starter and
move back etc; damaged or off center ring gear.) or something in the engine,
transmission or belt drive is dragging(unlikely, if car idles and runs OK).
A too tight piston or ring fit in a rebuilt engine can REALLY aggravate
things when hot... If starter is good, and you measure starter current draw,
it will go way up when hot if engine bind is loading it down. Current draw
on a good starter is always proportional to how hard it is to turn, if
starter and battery are OK. . So, you really need to know that number; you
must have a starter ammeter to say anything about what is wrong.

Second problem, not enough force from starter, is actually easy to
troubleshoot. The service manual provides a starter no load speed and
'locked rotor " torque value...do what it says, to find out the story! --and
sometimes gives an ampere draw at locked rotor and free spin. You do need a
starter ammeter; !!! check the draw IN the car is job # 1 !!!, while
cranking hot and cold and measure battery volts at the same time. The
battery should stay at 10.5-11 or more , no matter what you do; if not,
battery is in question..most common problem, or a cheap toy battery. Winter
storage allowing it to die and then a spring charge cuts 50% out of a
battery; a carbon load pile can find that.(Harbor tool) . Always buy
batteries by weight, not sales bullshit; the bigger / heavier the better;
store inside on wood surface (no concrete) and trickle charge once a month
for a 24 hour day. Leaving trickle charger on , even fancy 'self turn off"
ones, can wreck battery by evaporating the water. . Cables must be heavy
gauge, in good shape and tight. Cheap thin cables loose power, but any
problems in cables or ends will be accompanied by getting hot when trying to
start for extended times. Feel the ends for heat after cranking for a minute
or so. It is not generally necessary to scrape paint etc, as bolt has no
paint and current goes through that side into block too. ..but it cannot
hurt.

The free spin test in service manual checks for shorts in armature, as it
will not rev up to high speed with a shorted armature; you also can check
resistance from commutator bars to shaft, should be an open circuit...most
shorts are from winding to shaft or core, but turn to turn shorts happen
too...and slow down rev test. Test field winding for shorts to frame too.
There is a free spin rated current, it should be within 5-10%.The locked
rotor test is a little tricky to do, but checks torque output vs. current
draw; it draws very high current for that, which will find bad brushes or
open windings in armature. Worn brushes imply a lower spring pressure, and I
have seen brushes 'frozen" to the brush holders by long storage and so not
pressing on the commutator; that leads to low torque and bad burning which
destroys the commutator. Always free up brushes in slides, check them when
rebuilding a stored car( generator, too) . Problems with armature can
usually be found visually..a shorted turn will be burned, or commutator
burned etc. = look carefully.

In the realm of weird things, I had a situation like this, it turned out to
be the wire lead attachment / big bolt on the starter frame of a 60 Dodge.
It was OK and tight on the cable, but the nut UNDER the lug was loose, (!)
which allowed the stud to move sideways in the steel and touch the starter
frame, (sometimes......!)drawing huge current and barely turning,,
intermittently. This, from factory. Loose starter bearings or off center
ends can let armature touch field poles, but only when starter is on,
magnetism pulls it sideways. --that will totally kill output torque. 

New battery, generator , regulator , battery cables etc did nothing on that
60 Dodge, and a jump would start it , deflecting blame from the starter.
Correctly tightening the under nut fixed it. So, I empathize.... Drove me
crazy. Starter Ammeter is what found it. How much the headlights dim at
cranking is a poor man's ammeter!

The solenoid MUST make the main contact solidly and be correctly assembled,
as it will spin weakly while engaging, but full torque doe not come until
solenoid shorts out the pull in winding , which happens after pinion is
almost all the way in. Tolerances in this are critical, someone may have
rebuilt wrong. There is no need to run a ground right to the starter, as the
engine block has a very low electrical resistance. In fact shorter, heavier
cables and a big fresh battery matter most .

The thinking should be: the stock setup is fine, something is wrong
somewhere..they knew what they were doing. . At a bare minimum , you need a
starter ammeter, and a voltmeter..and compare with a good car. 300F does not
crank easily, but stock works fine.

Hope this helps,

John Grady

PS, gear reduction or "geared mini starters" non stock are better, but
original is fine too. They are better as they have permanent magnets, no
field winding, gear down gives it more torque at same current draw.

From: Jean-Yves Chouinard [mailto:jymopar@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:jymopar%40nb.sympatico.ca> ] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 6:38 AM
To: John Grady
Subject: Fw: [Chrysler300] Battery/Starter-300F

This is the email from Tom Cox about starter problems...

J.Y.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Thomas Cox 

To: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com>  ;
parts@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:parts%40jcauto.com>  

Cc: donbelton313@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:donbelton313%40yahoo.com>  

Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 10:14 PM

Subject: [Chrysler300] Battery/Starter-300F

Thanks to the many folks that have given advice. A summary of the
suggestions:

1. Make certain the ground connection is to clean metal giving a good
ground.
2. Have the rebuilder use heavier winding materials.
3. Ground the battery to the starter (with clean, unpainted connection).
4. Cool the starter with water to see if a reduced temperature makes the
problem lessen to confirm the starter problem.

After all these, I contacted Jeff Carter who has bailed me out of many
difficult issues with the 300F build. He indicated, in agreement with all
the above, that it is likely a starter problem that may be due to multiple
starter rebuilds (or just age) where the field windings have deteriorated to
the point that they have too much resistance and are not funcioning properly
and when the starter gets hot, it does not provide the electrical boost
needed. That, and the probability that the windings of the armature are not
the heavier-duty variety. He no longer knows of a shop that has the
knowledge or the parts to do a proper rebuild with new field windings and
armature rewinding. 

Do any of our members have a starter shop that has this experience and parts
to do a complete and proper rebuild? It seems that may be the best solution
to the problem at hand. I imagine other folks are having, or will have, a
similar need. Louie Barrie indicated that he had a fellow with a great deal
of knowledge about these things. Any leads would be greatly appreciated.

Tom Cox

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