Re: [Chrysler300] Dupont Freon R-12
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Re: [Chrysler300] Dupont Freon R-12
- From: John <spiers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 19:08:13 -0700 (PDT)
Without a doubt, the FRIGC FR-12 will work very well if the cooling curves are
the same as R-12.
Without trying to ruffle any feathers, and to explain myself more fully, my A/C
guy says he won't touch it since it contaminates his recycling equipment for
R-12. He has 6 collector cars with R-12-equipped A/C and will use nothing but
R-12 in all of them. Plus he says it's illegal for him to service or refill a
system that has mixed refrigerants in it. Also, FRIGC FR-12 has 2% butane in
it. I think it's better to just stick to the R-12 stuff and leave the
alternatives to a time that there is no R-12 left.
Here's a link below to a review from eBay about alternative refrigerants, and
the text of the article follows the link:
Cheers,
John Spiers
http://reviews.ebay.com/Freeze-12-Refrigerant-R134a_W0QQugidZ10000000005615895
Thinking about using Freeze-12 refrigerant?
You may be surprised to learn that it is nothing more than a blend of R134a and
HCFC 142.
Most of the "alternative" refrigerants are really nothing more than a slightly
different blend with a fancy can. If you are unlucky, you actually get propane,
butane, or some other flammable gas.
ALTERNATIVE REFRIGERANT BLENDS
* Free Zone (RB-276). Supplied by Refrigerant Gases, this blend contains 79%
R-134a, 19% HCFC-142b and 2% lubricant.
* Freeze 12. Supplied by Technical Chemical, this blend contains 80% R-134a and
20% HCFC-142b.
* FRIGC (FR-12). Made by Intermagnetics General and marketed by Pennzoil, this
blend contains 59% R-134a, 39% HCFC-124 and 2% butane.
* GHG-X4 (Autofrost & McCool Chill-It). This blend is supplied by Peoples
Welding Supply and contains 51% R-22, 28.5% HCFC-124, 16.5% HCFC-142b and 4%
isobutane (R-600a).
* GHG-HP. Also supplied by Peoples Welding Supply, this blend contains 65%
R-22, 31% HCFC-142b and 4% isobutane (R-600a).
* Hot Shot\Kar Kool. Supplied by ICOR, this blend contains 50% R-22, 39%
HCFC-124, 9.5% HCFC-142b and 1.5% isobutane (R-600a).
The suppliers of the alternative blends say their products typically cool
better than straight R-134a in systems designed for R-12, and do not require
changing the compressor oil or desiccant in some cases. Changing the desiccant
to XH-7 is usually recommended if an R-12 system is converted to R-134a. The
desiccant should also be replaced if a blend contains R-22 because R-22 is not
compatible with XH-5 or XH-7 desiccant. The recommended desiccant in this case
would be XH-9.
The suppliers of the alternative blends also insist the fractionation problem
is exaggerated and do not foresee any major problems with recovering and
recycling their products (recycling blends is currently illegal, but the EPA is
reviewing its feasibility).
As it stands right now, recycling and servicing a system filled with an
alternative blend is illegal.
Please, the best refrigerant to use is the one it was designed for.
I am a EPA 609 certified MVAC technician.
Please beware of using anything you don't know what it is.
________________________________
From: "DAN300F@xxxxxxx" <DAN300F@xxxxxxx>
To: spiers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx; chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tue, June 21, 2011 4:50:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] Dupont Freon R-12
Hi:
I disagree that there is no drop-in product for R-12.
Just got off the telephone with a guy named Lee Epstein of Automat
Distributors, Pompano Beach, FL 33069, 954/969-1738, who sells FRIGC FR-12, a
direct drop-in replacement for R-12. As I mentioned in my e-mail of yesterday,
it exhibits the same cooling curve as R-12. The only thing recommended before
using this product is to add a couple of ounces of POE oil to the system. In
my F it blows your socks off.
The cost for a 30# canister is $295 + $25 Hazmat + shipping and a copy of your
license.
For more in formation on this product, Google "Refrigerants, Inc." In their
site they have a good discussion of it.
For anyone who wants something else, they handle Freeze 12 which they say is an
equivalent product to FRIGC FR-12.
Dan Reitz
Northridge, CA
In a message dated 6/21/2011 10:17:38 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
spiers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx writes:
One huge safety issue I haven't seen discussed yet about this recent topic -
>many of the refrigerants marketed as R-12 substitutes contain propane or
>other
>
>FLAMMABLE gases that work great as refrigerants - until you have a leak or
>are
>
>in an accident, then you're in trouble. One automotive A/C guy I know claims
>
>there are NO direct drop-in replacements for R-12.
>
>John Spiers
>Lake Worth, Florida
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: Warren Anderson <wranderson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>To: chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; Bob Jasinski <rpjasin@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>Sent: Tue, June 21, 2011 1:08:34 PM
>Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] Dupont Freon R-12
>
>
>
>A quick Google search and reference to Wikipedia on the subject Freon.
>Dupont
>
>did market CFC Freon products and other than R-12. Not no more.. Just any
>refrigerant is not Freon. R-12 can be Freon or may have some other brand
>name.
>
>Dupont R-12 is Freon.
>
>
>The current, most prevalent anyway, OE automotive refrigerant is R-134A which
>is
>
>not a CFC and is not Freon. Neither is anything else except R-12 by Dupont
>and
>
>their other CFC refrigerants in the family.
>
>What I do see is Freon with a lower case 'f' (freon) used in a lot of cases
>for
>
>some refrigerants that definately are not R-12. Maybe the lower case 'f' is
>being used like 'k' in 'kleenex' and 'j' in Jeep?
>
>Nobody cares. Not important.
>
>Warren Anderson
>Sedona,AZ
>
>Gary,
>
>I'm kinda scratching my head here on your post. The subject line says R12A,
>but the body says R-12. Aren't you referring to standard R-12 refrigerant
>here? I wouldn't expect any problem with using the same refrigerant that
>the system was designed for. Or, do you mean R12A is different? Please
>explain, I've never heard of R12A, only R12 or Freon 12, that's been the
>standard for years.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Bob J
>
>From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
>Behalf Of Gary Barker
>Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 10:59 PM
>To: 'Keith Boonstra'; 'Warren Anderson'; Louis M. Barrie
>Cc: chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; 'Jonnie'
>Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] R12A
>
>I bought a large container of R-12 many years ago and have charged several
>of my friends old cars and have had no problem with it. Gary Barker
>
>From: Louis M. Barrie
>Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 8:15 PM
>To: 'Keith Boonstra' ; 'Warren Anderson'
>Cc: chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com> ;
>'Jonnie'
>Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] R12A
>
>When Big Yellow was finished with restoration in 2004, we charged up the
>system with R-134 (we did not change the fittings). We have had no problems
>over 6+ years in the hot CA summer. At the beginning of the season, I have
>added a little bit of refrigerant, purchased at Wal-Mart, under $10.00/can,
>and the air blows cold and the car stays cool.
>
>No paperwork, no license or test, no major investment.
>
>Louis M. Barrie
>
>West Hills, CA
>
>Home of Big Yellow
>
>From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com>
>[mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com> ]
>On
>Behalf Of Keith Boonstra
>Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 7:19 PM
>To: Warren Anderson
>Cc: chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com> ;
>Jonnie
>Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] R12A
>
>I agree. At the risk of sounding like a salesman for R-12 I will say
>that the bottom line is that nothing will be gained, but various
>negatives will likely crop up, when you make a switch from R-12 to
>anything else in an old system. Especially R-134A. If you don't go
>through the entire system and at least change to a higher efficiency
>condenser and barrier hose and seals - along with the proper oil -
>you're going to have problems and poor cooling.
>
>With R-12 readily available at $350 there's really no point in
>changing. It's still the best one they have ever come up with. So just
>make sure all the components of your old setup are in good repair and
>charge it up with the R-12.
>
>Keith Boonstra
>
>6/20/2011 9:19 PM, Warren Anderson wrote:
>>
>>
>> Johnnie,
>>
>> Refrigerant blends have a reported negative effect characteristic of
>> separating in service. So, the system ends up with some unknown
>> mixture of chemicals. For some old clunker the resultant mixture might
>> be just fine but for something worth keeping, where the AC system is
>> expected to really work, original fill R-12 was and still is an
>> excellent refrigerant. People that test and evaluate refrigerants find
>> that the old R-12 was an excellent refrigerant with nothing developed
>> so far that performance wise for mobile systems works as well.
>>
>> Second choice I think is R-134A.. As this is original equipment right
>> now and, with proper system components, does provide acceptable
>> performance, I think it makes sense to use it for retrofits. But,
>> things like expansion valves, receiver driers, hoses and the condenser
>> need to be upgraded along with the compressor and the system
>> lubricant. This I have done anf it works well.
>>
>> New refrigerant are on the way to replace R-134A. Last I heard, the
>> new refrigerants will not be backwards compatible.
>>
>> Warren Anderson
>> Sedona,AZ
>>
>> it seems there are several products out there like R12A----but none of
>> them are an exact substitute for R12---we are buying a 30 pound tank
>> of R12---should be around $550---I already bought a 30 pounder that
>> was susposed to have been around half full---it contained around 2
>> pounds-----thankfully I never paid that much for it--------Johnnie Slayton
>>
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>>
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>>
>>
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