Re: [Chrysler300] Fwd: [Imperial-Club] Ethanol evaporation

[Steve Albu <saforwardlook@xxxxxxxxx>]

All I can say is that I have never experienced a damaged accelerator pump
in over ten years and many cars - there is sticking due to varnish if the
fuel is old as stated, but the varnish has clogged the needles/seats in
both the floats and the accelerator pump, making getting any fuel available
to start the car not possible. I have not had the experience of the leather
sticking to the walls and wonder whether there is enough clearance to allow
the leather to be pushed upward. Maybe cold conditions back east make my
experience different. I end up priming the carburetors through the bowl
vents or other means with fresh fuel and let it sit for a day to help
unclog the needles/seats. I do crank the engine before doing this in order
to get some oil pressure built up before starting after a long time
sitting. In either experience, manually priming the carburetors as
indicated would take care of the problems we have all noted with junk
ethanol gas and using the additives I mentioned should keep all of this to
a minimum with a reasonable level of fresh gas maintained. I worked at
Chrysler in the fuel systems department for 10 years and have rebuilt
scores of carburetors, so I too have some experience, but not with cold
climates and ethanol fuel.  Perhaps the cold climates tend to attract more
moisture and tend to evaporate the fuel at a slower rate compared to warmer
climates, which may well lead to different experiences with the gunk formed.

Steve Albu




On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 7:25 AM, Michael Moore <mmoore8425@xxxxxxx> wrote:

> I've been watching this discussion with interest.
> I sent my H carbs to the late George Riehl a couple of years ago to be
> rebuilt.
> He returned them, saying they didn't need rebuilding, they just needed an
> accel pump caused by the leather sticking to the wall and me pumping the
> accel pedal to start while dry.
>
> I installed an electric fuel pump to save wear on the starter, but one
> advantage of cranking the engine for so long before firing is that it
> starts with well lubricated bearings and oil pressure is up..
> My car has always been hard to start if it sat very long.
> George attributed that to the volatility of the gasoline we use today.
>
> On Mar 25, 2013, at 7:14 AM, "C Bilter" <cbilter@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>
> And here's a response from a gentleman named George McCollam in the
> Imperial
> Club in disagreement with Steve's response about pumping the pedal with a
> dried out carb. You guys do what you want. I will go by experience from
> the school of hard knocks. And I'm not talking about the car sitting for
> only a week. I'm talking about sitting for 4-6 months or more which can
> happen in northlands of the U.S. because the winters are long, and I'm
> talking about owners who just jump in the car and pump the pedal about 10
> times thinking that is the proper way to start the car. We have a lot of
> knowledge in the club and different experiences and opinions are helpful
> to
> all.
>
> Carl B.
>
> Hello All: Imperialists
> OK, where to start.....?
> First we probably should not "parse" words...(ie. stretch") that said....
> The word used to describe this situation " stretched" is used in many tech
> reports on carbs. This is how it works.... fuel is in the carb, the
> leather gasket on the accelerator pump is wet, all is good so you can pump
> away. But when the fuel leaves for any reason, it leaves behind a residue.
> Old school term would be shellac, new school term is "crap gas being sold
> to all of us". This is a glue that causes the leather gasket on the
> accelerator pump to stick to the sides of the pump chamber. SO... it is now
> dry and glued to the walls. along comes "happy driver", who, jumps in the
> driver seat and what is the first thing that "happy driver" does????...
> pumps the accelerator .... well why?.... to set the choke of course. So,
> now the stuck gasket is "stretched". Pulled apart and is on its way to
> being damaged.
> This is exactly correct for 1960 when we had real gasoline, that did not
> stick like today's gas. But today when we have "crap gas" it is a No,No.
> The only way to un-stick the stuck gasket is to wet the chamber first.
> to do this is to.... NOT touch the accelerator at all.
> So, without touching the accelerator pedal , crank the engine for a very
> long count of thirty (30 seconds) Yes it is a long time . Then stop wait a
> moment for the fuel that is now in the carb to soak into the accelerator
> pump gasket Then press the accelerator to the floor hard to set the choke,
> stop a moment Now lightly touch the accelerator and start the Imperial
> normally. Guess what it started right up.
> And yes it took about 3 minutes, but if you don't do it it won't ever
> start.
> I've spent more than 50 years playing with carbs, all kinds from exotic to
> my neighbors mower, if I have learned anything it is that fuel injection
> is the answer. But it is not the answer for our classics, which we must
> preserve at all costs, 'cause if we don't who will..
> .... Nuff Said....
> George w/ the '55 & '56 Crown Imperial limousines
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Albu
> Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 12:01 AM
> To: retromobilia@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: Chrysler300 ; bob hayen Chrysler 300F
> Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] Fwd: [Imperial-Club] Ethanol evaporation
>
> Pumping the throttle with a dry carburetor due to a long period of storage
> where the fuel has evaporated (usually more than a week for this to happen)
> should not affect the accelerator pump at all. That has never been a
> problem for me and as the previous post stated, the leather tends to shrink
> up slightly and in no way should be destroyed from pumping the throttle
> with the bowl dry.
> If the car takes a long time to start after a hot soak, and the time
> required to crank the engine is more than 10 seconds, then something else
> is wrong, perhaps the carburetor is leaking internally. I really doubt that
> with a fuel vent present, the fuel would flood the engine, unless the vent
> cap/lever were misadjusted to not let the vent actually vent when the
> engine is turned off with the throttle closed. And I also doubt the bowl
> would be empty after 3 hours of sittling during a hot soak. I live in
> California where we have routine high temperatures and the junk ethanol
> (E10) gasoline for some time now and do not have these issues.
> The only issues I do have are related to E10 fuel going bad after some 6
> months or more of sitting or not being changed out. With this junk fuel,
> varnish tends to form in the carburetor and plugs the needle and seats of
> the floats so they either do not open when cranking the engine or they are
> stuck open thus flooding the engine and potentially leading to hydrostatic
> lock and damage to the engine if it is not shut off quickly after realizing
> this is happening (runs rough and won't clear out immediately). Also, the
> check valve in the accelerator pump will also stick, so that the needed
> fuel squirt into the intake manifold will not happen, so the engine will
> not start when cold. After sitting some time with the carburetor bowls dry,
> just cranking an engine without a fuel pump shot of fuel will usually not
> allow the engine to start. The off idle and main circuits do not provide
> enough fuel by themselves to enable a cold engine to start without a pump
> shot even with the choke nearly closed. To address these issuess, I am
> trying using fuel preservatives such as Stabil or Starbrite or Lucas and a
> two cycle oil used in small quantities that has the T3 WC rating to see if
> I can avoid these varnish related problems. Stabil claims it will keep E10
> gasoline good for up to a year while Starbite claims more like 3 years. The
> small engine and motorcycle folks seems to be having good results with
> these additives at least and are gravitating to the Starbrite additive with
> the specified two stroke oil. I will see......................
> Steve Albu
>
> On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 1:32 PM, <retromobilia@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > any comments on this Chrysler info.
> >
> > ----- Forwarded Message -----
> > From: "C Bilter" <cbilter@xxxxxxxxx>
> > To: Imperial-Club@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 12:07:30 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] Ethanol evaporation
> >
> > This is what I was taught by a long time Mopar expert many years ago. I
> > don?t know if ?stretch? is the proper term or not; perhaps someone who
> > knows more about carbs can weigh in. But I have seen the effects of
> > pumping
> > a dry carb and it ruins the pump.
> >
> > From: Danno
> > Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 1:49 PM
> > To: Imperial-Club@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] Ethanol evaporation
> >
> > How does the accelerator pump leather get stretched? I don't understand
> > how pumping would stretch the leather on the accelerator pump. If it were
> > dry it would tend to be shrunk down some and have less pressure on the
> > walls of the pump well, but even if it wasn't shrunk I don't see how the
> > pump piston simply moving up and down in the pump well would stretch the
> > leather.
> >
> > Danno
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: C Bilter
> > To: mailto:Imperial-Club%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 9:18 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] Ethanol evaporation
> >
> > I would exercise some caution about ?pumping? the accelerator pedal with
> a
> > dry carb after a dry winter of sitting. After a few months of sitting,
> > most
> > if not all of the fuel in the carb has evaporated, and probably much or
> > most of the fuel in the fuel filter and line to the carb. If you have the
> > leather-type accelerator pump in the carb (pre-late 70?s), it will be
> dry.
> > Pumping will stretch the dry leather and will quickly ruin the
> accelerator
> > pump. I have seen many cars where this has happened. If you have a
> > properly
> > working fuel pump then all you should need to do is carefully manually
> set
> > the choke closed by hand under the hood, and crank the engine in several
> > increments of 15 seconds or so. This will draw fuel up through the system
> > and it also builds oil pressure. The car likely will start without any
> > pumping if everything is in tune, but after cranking some you can pump
> the
> > pedal once or twice if necessary to hasten starting. Anyway, this
> > procedure
> > dramatically increases the longevity of the accelerator pump.
> >
> > As discussed earlier, some folks just pour some gas in the bowls to
> hasten
> > starting (but you might get clattering lifters at first due to low oil
> > pressure), and some folks use an electric fuel pump to draw the fuel up
> > after sitting a long time to avoid the cranking and battery drain. The
> > electric fuel pumps are especially handy on the crossram 300s which have
> > dual four bbl carbs that both need gas.
> >
> > Carl B
> >
>
>  
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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