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The little rubber gaskets with the valve cover set are used if you have overhead oiling addendum I have only seen these on 1958 and industrial engines.
CC: jamie.hyde@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; radrpm@xxxxxxxxx; jandlmcphee@xxxxxxxxx; paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To: jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 16:15:44 -0700 Subject: Re: More about [Chrysler300] J cylinder head exhaust seats plus questions
John,
I am doing a bunch of other things but working on my car as I have time. My office is upstairs, so I run down when I can. It works great because I really enjoy working on it even thuogh my frustration level is so low. I removed the a/c plenum, and of course noticed some really old crappy repairs on the forewall moounted portion, so I spent some time doing some fiberglass work inside of that so it doesn't. I had to wait for the fiberglass to set up of course and I only did a small part at a time because of the 12 minute pot life. Removing the valve covers is not quite as easy as it looks, especially with my new engine mounts.The engine sits higher than it has in years, which makes the front pass side pug a whoi;e lot easier to remove but makes that valve cover more difficult to get off. The a/c hoses and cruise control make the drivers side a challenge also. I took the opportunity to do a compression check while all the plugs were out and I'm right at 147-150 on all 8 cylinders. I have no idea what it should be, but I know the Barnes cam was ground to lower the compression ratio by manipulation duration, overlap etc, I would guess that';s more of dynamic effect. I have also wondred though if they had installed low compression pistons as they were so concerned about me being unable to get premium gasoline in the future (relative to 1982). I did measure all valve clearances cold, spinning the engine over with plugs out. My Barnes cam calls for .026, both I and E and it was spot on. I did adjust some but only slightly and only to adjust the "feel" as I slid the .026 feeler gauge into the backlash to check it. I do not think I turned any adjuster more than 1/8 of a turn. If they are 28 pitch screws (????) , then one rev is 1/28 inch or .035 and 1/8 is .0045. These numbers make no sense because all I felt was the gauge getting slightly easier to slide in and out. Do we know the thread pitch of the adjuster screws? I have NOT checked it hot yet, I have two more plugs to install and then start and warm it up. Hopefully, tomorrow morning. That slant six is one tough engine. I sometimes wonder if all the Asian crap happens because they just don't want cars to last that long. Of course, even American engines today are throw away engines to a great extent . My machine shop said that some of the dohc 4 valve engines now are simply not worth the cost of a valve job, so a bad valve can scrap the vehicle. I never realized that not having a plug in the circuit can destroy a coil. That's pretty strange,. Back in 1973 I got a new office mate in Melbourne Florida. Gene and his family had just driven to Florida in their brand new 1973 Chrysler Town and Country Station Wagon. One day Gene's wife called and I head him say he would come home and "straighten the steering wheel". He told me that on the new Chryslers, because they were power steering, sometimes you had to "set the steering wheel straight" because it got misaligned. I asked more about it, and he said the wheels would be straight ahead but the steering wheel would be crooked. I told him that shouldn't be. He said to straighten it, you had to turn the wheel with the engine off. He said the salesman in Seattle had told him that was normal for that car. I told Gene the guy was nuts the steering column was always connected mechanically. He brought the car in, and he was right. Engine on, I could turn the front wheels with teh steering wheel. Engine off I could turn the steering wheel, but front wheels remained stationery. We took it the dealer who took care of my 300H (Gator Chrysler Plymouth). The foreman couldn't believe it. We almost had a nasty incident because the dealer would not allow the car off the lot and threatened to call the police if gene tried to leave as he wanted to do. Pleading that he had just driven it from Seattle didn't help. They gave Gene a loaner, The manager would not give us the old parts, but there is a part in the steering column where a splined shaft fits into a broached blind hole. It looked like the broached hole was drilled way way oversize, and it was the friction of the end of the splines providing just enough torque that with power assist it worked ok. As Gene said, it was getting easier to become misaligned though. They could have crossed a centerline somewhere, killed everyone, and no one would ever know what caused it, I had dipped my wore supports in rubber years ago and it has blistered, I think I will just do it again though. Best, Mike On May 27, 2014, at 12:54 PM, John Grady <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: Hi Mike,
You set them cold to .026, or they were that way when opened? I thought you did one side hot already, must be losing it ..glad you are doing this, very important,!!---
it is just the sequence of what is happening, is getting me lost .
If set hot to .026, you are saying it did not change? As you know, point is how much it changes hot to cold ; if you subscribe to setting it .002-,003 loose, to be sure (I do) I am hoping that might cover variability hot to cold, so you can do cold to some # and be confident it will never close up on you at high heats/loads…that hot to cold thing is key, but still have doubts about the need to do all that, as how hot is hot or cold is cold? One assumes say 68 cold, maybe 190 hot oil. .002 loose does nothing to performance but .002 tight will possibly burn all the valves if hot enough. There is a cold setting that works, it is just easier for cam guy to say, do it hot, so he does not have to figure all this out , then.
Agree, Cometic gaskets very good; I was warned by other customers not to use valve cover gaskets sent with a 4.0 JEEP engine just rebuilt ( S&J, in Spokane..have bought 5-6 engines there, really good machining and quality parts, good price, have had great luck long term with what they did—other problems happened with “new parts” (below) they bought) .
Would not hesitate to do a 300 RB block engine there.. They do thousands of engines, not one or two like most small machine shops , will do what you want if special parts. Have all the really big CNC engine machines to do it right. Zero oil consumption, zero leaks
Anyway, cork /rubber type el cheapo valve cover gaskets leak, fall apart, probably from Asia, squeeze out / extrude at bolts . It was recommended to buy best Fel pro, I did ---also nice piece , one side designed to stay on valve cover , easy on and off . More and more parts people seem to have multiple levels of quality and tell you that..Rock Auto is good at that. Not sure though where your washers go, could not be on top, ?? that holds plug wire guides.
On parts, one 225 slant I did at S&J (then called S&S) had two issues , one, the cup on the upper end of the push rod is spot welded on , one came off in Cleveland (67 Dart convert) on way to Boston at 2 AM on 90. 600 miles to go . Cup came right off push rod top, at 70 mph, from forensic look at parts days later , it was hardly welded on (“new Pushrods”) ; very interesting = check this! Only on a MOPAR, lifter popped out (unknown to me) went down into pan , maybe push rod, too or hung there , violent popping back in intake each time that cylinder intake opened (it was exhaust valve that was not working, burned charge goes into intake). In desperation by side of road pulled plug wires live one at a time, popping stopped (I thought it was a dropped intake valve) ; Made it to Boston on 5 cyl, toes and fingers crossed, wire I pulled I grounded to engine with coat hanger wire to avoid open circuit blowing coil or cap arc..Volts go WAY high if open circuit. Only on MOPAR, something like .060 hole lubes 225 lifter, it was squirting out all the way home but oil pump kept up ! no red light. On most engines= zero oil pressure,= lunched engine, big hole into oil gallery at lifter,--- if it comes out ,= no oil to bearings. We actually got lifter out through valve cover with bendable rod magnet(!) or string we guided to oil pan drain, with wire, (forget which, tried /used both ) tied lifter to it at drain hole pulled up , put back in place and a “REAL” new push rod, 25 k miles ago. Slant redefines great design . never even pulled pan, piece of push rod sitting at drain hole. . JEEP 4.0 you cannot get lifters out without pulling head. Hello? Just make push rod holes big enough, on a six…or side covers .
Then oil pump has pressed on steel or cast iron gear from mopar, rebuilds from Asia have powdered metal gears; maybe can live with that, maybe not (they were behind all the Ford transmission failures on the old Taurus at 80K) ; but you CANNOT press on, a powdered metal gear, in my opinion; it needs a cross pin, spline or a key. Press on puts at risk for a crack in tension. Yet one of the dimmest bulbs in the sign pressed it on as part of “playing engineering” over there ; so one day at 5000 RPM WOT 1st gear, it spun free on shaft ,= no oil pressure, red light . Because two independent gears engage cam on slant , it runs like that , unlike v8 , distributor is still turning with oil pump stopped! Unbelievably engine was still idling,…drove home 5 miles at 25 mph with red light on. (too cold to walk) ; new “REAL” oil pump, w steel gear , been ok since .Oil pump is outside engine too, great! Mother is good… If you see powdered metal gears, run other way.
I do not know how wires are dressed, stock..a picture from back then, may help ; I think some B blocks had a coating on the metal prongs , like dipped in rubber, at least in later years, saw that somewhere, then they painted right over it ; I do know 318/360 in truck had black plastic tops..which all break right off. One of my 70’s trucks had new ones made of thin strong plywood by its elderly prior owner! Held on to vertical piece by 6/32 screw and big #6 fender washer , big as a dime, in existing hole! Not concours but works great. He numbered the slots too. Some might think that is better!
John
From: Michael Moore [mailto:mmoore8425@xxxxxxx]
John, I checked the drivers side side, spinning a cold engine (plugs out) and those valves are also all at .026. This is where my Barnes cam needs to be hot.
I installed my first Cometic valve cover gasket, and it was well worth the trouble. It is such a fine gasket.
Questions:
1. On the 300H, how do the steel plug wire separators go? Pointing to the center of the head, or pointing to the outside of the head, or all pointing front, or all pointing rear etc.? Is there supposed to be something between the metal parts and the ht wires?
2. I have seen rubber grommets also used with teh valve cover. Where do they properly go?
Next step will be to run it, get it hot, then measure valves again hot.
Thanks, Mike Moore
On May 22, 2014, at 1:40 PM, Michael Moore <mmoore8425@xxxxxxx> wrote:
John, Also-I was having a hard time finding 4 hole valve cover gaskets for my 300H. I found Felpro, and bought those, but really wanted Cometic as I use those on some other cars and am impressed with them.
I couldn't find them listed anywhere in Cometic catalogues, so I called Cometic and they made me two sets for $69. The Stock Code is VC284188ML, Description is "Chrysler 383/400/440 pre 1963" . Their tel no is 440-354-0777.
While I was looking for Cometic gaskets, I grabbed a NOS cork set from E Bay which look fresh. Mike Moore 300H
On May 22, 2014, at 8:55 AM, Michael Moore mmoore8425@xxxxxxx [Chrysler300] <Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Here's my experience-My 300H had a major rebuild in 1984 done by Lee Hamilton Racing Engines in Quincy Illinois.A top notch rebuilder of the day.
My wife and I flew back to Quincy and ferried the car back to California with no drama. I was burning leaded high test gasoline at the time.
From 1964 until then, it had been our family car, making several cross country trips. After a paint job and a Gary Goers interior, we began taking the car to shows on the West Coast and Canada.
Gradually, leaded premium disappeared. The engine then had 10000 miles since overhaul. On one trip to a WPC show in Victoria, we were driving the car especially hard. It was very hot and we were trading off using the busy coast route or the hotter inland route . Much of the trip was mountainous. I was driving well over 90 going uphill in very hot weather.I was even trying to see what the speed coming out of second gear was on a full out acceleration. I think it was around 100.
I noticed a change in exhaust note eventually, and by the time I got to the show, I had exhaust gas coming out of the oil breather and the valve cover paint was blistered. After the show, I began the long trip home back to Los Angeles. I called Ray Doern, or he volunteered, or I volunteered him, but we ended up in his back yard in Portland. Several local members of the 300 Club dropped by to look and offer suggestions. I finally decided that no matter what, the problem was the head(s), and it had to come off. Ray had offered a bed for us. We began in the late afternoon to pull the heads in his back yard. By 9 pm, we had the heads in a Portland machines shop Ray knew. It was a big automotive machine shop whose chief machinist seemed very knowledgeable. The valves needed hardened seats he said as the valves were burned from inadequate cooling caused by lack of lead, poor sealing and hot gasses blowing through the exhaust valves and guides etc.
The heads were promised by 2 the next day. Ray left me with a car to run errands in and the next morning Connie and I cleaned up parts, repainted the valve covers, got a gasket set and prepared the engine for the heads. As soon as the heads were ready, we painted them and the intake manifold the proper color, let the paint flash a bit and carefully installed the still wet heads. Later that afternoon, we were running again. We cleaned up and took the Ray and Cindy Doern out to the best steakhouse they knew of, celebrated success. We departed the next morning and returned to LA without incident. The most significant damage was a valve guide worn completely through the guide and kissing the head casting. The theory was that once the exhaust valve was burned enough to leak, hot gasses traveled up through the guide leading to the guide damage. The message I got from the shop manager was that the 413 in hot weather, uphill, driving hard as I was really needed hardened seats. I accept his opinion as god knows he has replaced enough of them to see what's going on. And, why would I NOT have had the hardened seats installed at that point? I recall the job cost me $400 including new valves and hardened seats.
Mike Moore
On May 22, 2014, at 8:12 AM, 'John Grady' jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [Chrysler300] <Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Jamie, despite the mad rush to put these in, has anyone on server experienced that failure (which is specifically, what? ) on B engine exhaust seat without inserts? Can be an issue , I would expect, on marine or truck engines under high loads, but car engines, I have some trouble buying it. Do not have those in any heads on cars I have built or owned, never had any problems since 62(!) , and inspected engines with 100k + on them at teardown, no evidence of anything. I suspect it is a rumor grown large, from the 283 camp, but emphasize I have an open mind, would like to know of someone who had this happen. What DOES happen??,(! Facts, from examination, not magazine or machine shop opinions)?? If not perfectly done, in terms of fit , they DO fall out, totaling the engine. I do know of that happening to a friend’s engine . Leads to lots of mouth movem ent at machine shop about why, blame you (somehow) which does not bring back rare heads, even if made whole on $. Further, from engineering view, there is an inefficient seam in heat transfer from inlaid seat to cast iron, solid iron transfers heat better, and heat is the enemy. Plus, amount of iron to water is reduced, I think making it far far easier to crack it. Not “breaking through” but leaving .060 of iron is far worse in fact than breaking through, as you do not know that.. Your machinist is a very smart guy. Antifreeze leak takes out whole engine. (just went through that , cam was round, all rockers totaled inside at shaft) . To answer your specific question, there are ultrasound devices that can measure depth to water jacket, but do you REALLY want to reduce that safety factor over group think?
With respect to burning of exhaust, only engine I know of, personal experience, that that happened on was on propane, and it was valve-- not seat that was badly grooved and burned, that also makes common sense, plain cast iron seat was perfect, not even needing grinding, new valve and Ok since . That seat REALLY surprised me, expected what you talk of, especially with radially grooved valve right against it….but there you have it. Destroyed valve, seat fine. Seat is surrounded by a large mass of iron backed by water. Yet, apparently?? Valve has nothing to worry about,?? yet seat gets hurt, per rumor? Right.
Some quality engines have induction hardened heat treated area around exhaust valve, more for recession or wear than (?” No lead failure—which specifically, is wha t??”?) , Putting in seats probably nicely removes the elaborate heat treat** . B block might have that , they did something to improve hemi, as early ones had factory stellite hard seats , believe on later ones they deleted it.--- Without problems--- but maybe a really good heat treat. For high performance engines, for sure they would not have forgotten 55-58 hemi racing experience in 59-64. Plus no exhaust seat history on B blocks , (to my knowledge) unlike cheap brand x that does not even have valve guides (except hole drilled in cast iron) , their heads may burn. And they outnumber us.
All of this assumes correct adjustment of solids,--- too tight you burn everything, all bets are off if valve is hung off seat when hot.
My .02, ----do not listen to “everyone knows” BS, think it through…as you are doing. Your thinking is right on. Further if worst prediction happens(it won’t) you do a valve job at 75-100k, still have your J heads, unlike antifreeze and cracking worries.
** had that happen, machine ship proudly turned perfect C or D crank .010 to “clean it up” (read charge you) which removes thin marine/ industrial heat treat the 300 hemi cranks had. Something like nitriding, read that long ago, as a costly feature of 392 letter car cranks . Took me a week to get over that. Not sure I ever did.
John
From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Hello group, The machine shop that is working on my J heads asked me if there is enough casting meat to put hardened exhaust inserts in the combustion chambers with the large 300J 1.74 valve diameter? They are reluctant to t ake a chance on not knowing if anyone has done the inserts on the 557 J head casting and then ruining my rare parts by breaking into the cooling jacket. The senior guy in the machine shop has some experience on a 413 max wedge engine when they went to a 1.81 valve (he does not recall the casting number of those heads) and broke into the jacket when they did the inserts, since the heads were not as valuable to him, He just sourced a set of 915’s that were of a later casting and installed the large 1.81 seats into them without a problem. The factory had apparently changed the mold casting by then to provide more material in that area that allowed them to install the hardened seat. I do not want to run any type of fuel additive as I would like to have the inserts added to my heads but of course will not do the inserts if there is a chance that the 557’s will be damaged during the process. Has anyone on the server installed hardened seats in a J?
Jamie Hyde 585-466-0067 cell
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