Re[4]: {Chrysler 300} 300F Backfire thoughts?

["Carl Bilter" <cbilter@xxxxxxxxx>]

Danny (and Ron as well), 

It is not my intent to be argumentative; I have a different opinions and experience, and we just disagree.  The discussion and presentation of opinions and facts is what is helpful.  Bold italics and assuming people are ignorant and lazy is not helpful. 

My first experience with Pertronix, in 2011,  was not positive.  I installed a unit in my 300J mostly as a challenge just to see if I could get it to work, not becuase I was too lazy or ignorant on the installation or maintenance of breaker points.  I got it to work, only after much research and talking directly with the tech team at Pertronix, which John Lazenby helped orchestrate.   Why bother?  Because I am the 300J consultant, and folks were asking me how to make it work on a 300J.  I could have responded "don't bother, screw in a set of points."  That was not helpful to them.   My conclusion at the time, and still is, that at least with Ignitor I, that use of a Pertronix in a Prestolite dual point tach drive distributor is not straight forward and subject to user installation problems.  Perhaps, with other single point distributors, these issues do not exist.  Perhaps, with Corvette distributors, there are other problems.  But simple logic tells me the company would not have survived this long if thousands (or millions?) of their units have failed in normal use. 

We also may be mixing apples and oranges from a technical standpoint, because there are many different Pertronix modules, and also Ignitor I, II, and III.  They are not all the same.  People tend to complain about failures and problems.  I don't think we know how many units are successfully installed and in use vs. failures, i.e. we do not know the actual failure rate.  That is why it is anecdotal - it is not scientific.  

BTW, screwing in a set of points on my J did not fix anything.  Turns out it was a bad distributor, that some P.O. installed, from a '68 426 hemi.  For Lindsey, I would validate that the distributor is 100% good first, rather than assuming the Pertronix is bad.  Your approach would work as well.  Two different means to an end.   And that assumes the backfire is an ignition problem, which I don't think has been determined.  

I have used electronic ignition for 43 years and only had one failure, intermittent, on a '75 Imperial, back in the day.  The original Direct Connection boxes back in the 80's had a stellerr reputation for reliabilty.   My undersatnding is that circuit was changed and the Mopar boxes made after 2000 are trouble prone.  I get new ones from Rick Ehrenberg on ebay, made in USA, original Direct Connection design, or so it is said.  I don't use Pertronix any more.  The separate ECU can be mounted in a cooler engine compartment location, even out of sight, and has superior heat sinking.  Depending on where it is located, it can also be changed out in a few minutes on the road if necessary.  Carry a spare box.  The Mopar style electronic distributor itself with reluctor and mag. pickup is pretty reliable, as I understand.  On new conversions I would not use Pertronix, because it is all housed under the cap.  Can't change out easily on the road.  Because it is aftermarket, and it can fail.  So can a lot of other things.  Like the oil sender that suddenly failed without warning and dumped a couple qts of oil on my G in a few miles before I noticed the OP gauge was at zero.   Carry spare parts. on a long run  

Why bother with electronic ignition?  Personal preference.  Nothing wrong with points.   Nearly every vehicle built in the last 50 years has electronic igintion.  Should they all be changed to breaker points because the ECU will crap out and leave you walking?    Modern vehicles are completely electronic.  I'm sure they crap out as well, but I don't see the interstate littered with broken down vehicles due to faulty electronics.  An EMP strike could disable all of them.  We could be hit by lightening as well.  And the stock market could go to zero.  I don't focus on statistical improbabilities.  To each their own.

Carl

------ Original Message ------

From dplotkin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

To "Carl Bilter" <cbilter@xxxxxxxxx>

Cc "Andy Mikonis" <r41hp@xxxxxxxxx>; "John Lazenby" <french_fryguy@xxxxxxxxx>; "Lindsey Fuller" <lindsey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "John Grady" <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "'Bob Meritt" <bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Jean-Yves Chouinard" <jymopar@xxxxxxxxxxx>; "Jim Marino" <jpm0855@xxxxxxxxx>; "chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Date 8/1/2024 2:48:09 PM

Subject RE: Re[2]: {Chrysler 300} 300F Backfire thoughts?

Carl-

I have no idea how much experience you have across many cars with Pertronix. However I lurk on a variety of different old car forums in which the like minded share experience as we do here. I don't condemn a product in wide use lightly. 

 

The failures of Pertronix are widely known in the old car hobby, especially among the Corvette community which is far larger than our letter car community, with many more cars and people. The evidence I have seen there over 12 years is far from anecdotal. 

 

Is some of it failure to follow instructions? Yes. Do many use Pertronix without a problem. Must be. Have a great many been relegated to the side of the road because of a properly installed but defective product? Absolutely. 

 

I agree with you Carl that the problem could be elsewhere. However given what the greater hobby has experienced with Pertronix, the first thing someone with Pertronix and an ignition related running problem should do is rule out the Pertronix first! Screw in a set of points and see what happens. 

 

This does not have to be an argument. It's a discussion where everyone can learn from each other. 

 

Danny Plotkin

 

-----Original Message-----
From: "Carl Bilter" <cbilter@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2024 3:14pm
To: "Andy Mikonis" <r41hp@xxxxxxxxx>, "John Lazenby" <french_fryguy@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: dplotkin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Lindsey Fuller" <lindsey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "John Grady" <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "'Bob Meritt" <bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Jean-Yves Chouinard" <jymopar@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "Jim Marino" <jpm0855@xxxxxxxxx>, "chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re[2]: {Chrysler 300} 300F Backfire thoughts?

I did not intend to reignite the Pertronix debate with my post.  Lindsey asked if the Pertronix might factor into his problems.  Of course it is possible, but my point was that I basically disagreed with Danny that it "increases the odds greatly."  I would start by looking at other issues first.  That is hardly blaming something else.  It is trying to help a fellow member get timely resolution to a problem.   I also never said it can't cause a backfire.  It most definitely is possible.  I just suspect that is an exception, very atypical (in a correct installation, on a Prestolite dual point, no clue on a Camaro)).  We all have different opinions and that heps all of us when there is a problem.  

We don't know that failure rate of the Pertronix units in the field and to what degree the root cause is due to "user error."  Anecdotal evidence is insufficient to draw proper conclusions.  I appreciated John Lazenby's post beause he has more direct experience with the product and the vendor than most (or all) of us.  John could not have run a successful parts business for 40-50 years selling products that don't work.  

To address Andy's question, the product has weak points and user installation (or operational) errrors can contribute greatly to its premature demise.  In fact, I did an entire video on the subject, specifally in reference to use in the Prestolite dual point distributors.  See here:  Pertronix Ignitor (youtube.com)  If you don't have 13 minutes to watch the video, I'll summarize:

1.  Bad ground.  Needs to be not greater than 0.2 ohms.  (ground is also critical with Mopar ECU box).  User installation error. 

2.  Low voltage, esp. running unit in series with ballast resistor, as Danny mentions, by connecting the red wire to coil pos. instead of a full 12V source.  It will work - but could shorten life and cause other problems.  User installation error. 

3.  Wrong air gap.  Usually doesn't work at all.  User needs to check.  User installtion error.

4. Magnet sleeve not fully seated.  User installtion error. 

5. Installing unit in a worn distributor.  All sorts of issues can occur.  User insatllation and operation error.  

6.  Operation with faulty alternator, generator, voltage regulator, or weak battery.  Low or high voltage damages unit over time.  Voltage spikes are possible.   User operational error.  

7.  Failure to readjust ignition timing after installation.  User insatllation error.  

Other issues not associated with user installation error:

1.  Heat.   Can damage unit over time.  

2.  Unit uses the breaker plate as a heat sink.  May not really be adequate.  Not any choice as unit must fit under the distributor cap.  

I am not saying that the Pertronix is a better solution than factory breaker points.  It is an alternative solution.  The module is a solid state switching device  (probably a Darlington switch in EE terms, but not sure).  It provides a consistent spark over time (when operating as designed).  The spark is cleaner.  But not stronger. - due to voltage drop on switch.  John Grady 100% correct on that, as always.  

Carl B. 

------ Original Message ------

From "'Andy Mikonis' via Chrysler 300 Club International" <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

To "John Lazenby" <french_fryguy@xxxxxxxxx>

Cc dplotkin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; "Lindsey Fuller" <lindsey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Carl Bilter" <cbilter@xxxxxxxxx>; "John Grady" <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "'Bob Meritt" <bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Jean-Yves Chouinard" <jymopar@xxxxxxxxxxx>; "Jim Marino" <jpm0855@xxxxxxxxx>; chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Date 7/31/2024 11:58:20 PM

Subject Re: {Chrysler 300} 300F Backfire thoughts?

What kind of user installation error makes a pertronix fail later “on the road”? Maybe it’s a user issue if there is a “no start” on the initial install. If you want to blame “something else” then why is pertronix better than staying with points and checking them once in a while?

To paraphrase my favorite east coast EE, no one knows ignition like the automobile manufacturers, and they figured it out over a century ago; the aftermarket has nothing on them. Also, if you understand your points system, you can fix it on the side of the road. If your aftermarket ignition fails you walk

On Jul 31, 2024, at 9:03 PM, 'John Lazenby' via Chrysler 300 Club International <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Well, I figured I jump in here and make a few comments.  First, I'm not an "electronics guy" other than I know not to put my finger in the wall socket.

For years my company, Royze Inc. sold the Pertronix line.  I became friends with John G. a fellow VW guy who was the national sales manager at Pertronix and between the two of us we got the unit for the early Hemi Dual Point Distributors put into product.  The original prototype is in my parts bin as I write this.

From time to time we would get units back from customers stating they were faulty.  If they were in the warranty period we would replace the unit no questions asked.  Those "faulty" units would be sent back to Pertronix for inspection and we would be issued credit.  John ALWAYS sent me a report on any units that went back and virtually none of them were bad.  I'm not saying it never happened but it was seldom.

On a personal not I've run these units in our 300B and 300C for over 25 years without issues.  Now to be as objective as I can I did try one in our '55 NYer T&C and had issues of it firing.  According to John the 6 volt units were marginal at best.  So on that car I went back to dual points and no further issues.  I sold the business and retired over six years ago and John G. also retired from Pertronix shortly thereafter.

John Lazenby

On Wednesday, July 31, 2024 at 06:47:55 PM PDT, Carl Bilter <cbilter@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

An eight year old Pertronix Ignitor module would not be of the older variety.  The trouble prone modules were those from 25 or more years ago, and most problems were "user installation error."

And a Pertronix means no points, no capacitor.  They tend to be all or nothing which equates to failure meaning no spark. 

I think fuel/carb issue unless timing is off.  

Carl B.  

------ Original Message ------

From dplotkin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

To "Lindsey Fuller" <Lindsey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Cc "John Grady" <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Carl Bilter" <cbilter@xxxxxxxxx>; "'Bob Meritt" <bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Jean-Yves Chouinard" <jymopar@xxxxxxxxxxx>; "Jim Marino" <jpm0855@xxxxxxxxx>; "chrysler 300 club" <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Date 7/31/2024 3:31:28 PM

Subject Re: {Chrysler 300} 300F Backfire thoughts?

Use of Pertronix increases the odds greatly that the trouble lay with ignition and likely the Pertronix module itself. The older variety are known to eventually fail and backfiring is among the presentations. 

 

Danny Plotkin

-----Original Message-----
From: "Lindsey Fuller" <Lindsey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2024 3:47pm
To: "John Grady" <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "Dan Plotkin" <dplotkin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Carl Bilter" <cbilter@xxxxxxxxx>, "'Bob Meritt" <bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Jean-Yves Chouinard" <jymopar@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "Jim Marino" <jpm0855@xxxxxxxxx>, "chrysler 300 club" <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: {Chrysler 300} 300F Backfire thoughts?

Thanks for all the input. I should have mentioned that I switched to Pertronics ignition during restoration 8 years ago. Not sure if that changes any of your ideas.

On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 8:10 AM John Grady <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

very good point Dan , i jumped to tail pipe backfire , more likely a carb backfire , accell pump check valve sticks on these , no squirt ? one side . Especially off idle 

Same issues apply . Haven’t be careful myself , which kind of backfire 

I had quite a dance last week with one of my cars , will be long story , Later on . I write long stories . This one is real . 

but end point : NEVER hold wire in hand to check spark or run with a coil wire off distributor or pulled plug wire etc . Unloaded plug volts  can exceed 60000 will break down the coil inside , especially old one . voltage is clamped to 20000 or under , by the outside plug gap .Make tester  of old plug and ground wire 

All this last week led to discovering a 10$ tester on amazon with adjustable screw  gap , set it to 20 kv , to test spark . Great tool . Never knew about it . Fits on wire . Critical in fact to check spark without hurting the coil inside . It will hold the bolts down like a plug 

Once you hurt your coil you  get occasional poor running , or one day won’t start right , on and on and sends you down a very long  garden path maybe for years .And intermittent as all get out .  Reason : Part of spark is sometimes reduced by coil carbon track inside the coil . Sometimes … 

I have done that we all have . It DOES damage coil . 

We keep

learning 

John 

Begin forwarded message:

From: John Grady <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: July 29, 2024 at 8:03:08 AM EDT
To: Lindsey <lindsey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: {Chrysler 300} 300F Backfire thoughts?

hi backfire is not usually a plug issue or wire at plug either . A failure there usually means obvious skip ,( it is then  not firing, as  opposed to firing ant wrong time)  and although that skip could lead to fuel vapor in exhaust etc , i have never seen that . And it would skip . If skip , dirty plug a hard run might help , like uphill .

but my money is on incorrect points setting too tight . you really can’t do it right with out an old fashioned dwell meter as they are critical and tend to change as you tighten the screw . See ebay old sears dwell meter

Also the capacitor . If someone replaced yours with one with rubber conical nose they are junk . Hard to find but original mopar has a copper strap out of cap
I may not  be right on all this , from afar but what I would do …
hope it helps
j

On Jul 28, 2024, at 10:24 PM, Lindsey <lindsey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Have hardly driven my F this year due to wet and nasty weather and waiting to get my brakes fixed properly. Finally took it for an hour or so city cruise last Sunday. After a slow crawl through a show and shine, i stopped at a red light. Accelerated medium throttle and heard a backfire, probably mine. 5 minutes later hit another red light and motor was shaking at idle. Obviously a cylinder not happy. Got home ok. Not able to bend down at moment to pull front wheels and access covers to get at plugs. No signs of arching on coil or distributor cap contacts that i could see. Cap for #1 cylinder had a bit of loose black stuff at bottom which cleaned up with a q tip. Took it out again and seemed fine, motor smooth, good moderate acceleration, no highway. Came to a stop sign on a remote road. Didn’t come to a full stop, then began accelerating modestly and a small backfire. The car has always run a bit rich since restoration i believe. Any thoughts before I get it to my out of town mechanic?

Thanks.

Lindsey in fires fire free Winnipeg

Sent from my iPad

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