Re: IML: Lead additive

[erwood@xxxxxxxxxxx]

So does this apply to the L head 8 in my 49 Imperial or only to the V8's that came after?
 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: PAUL WENTINK <randalpark@xxxxxxx>
> It sounds like what I was told was correct. That means that 1955 models 
> and earlier can be run on unleaded gas without ill effects, unless the 
> heads have been reconditioned or replaced at some point with those from 
>  a '56 model.
> 
> As far as the "who done it?" I guess we will never know, as he/she is 
> probably in accounting heaven by now.
> 
> Paul W.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Burt Bouwkamp <northburt@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 7:41 pm
> Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive
> 
> 
> 
> Paul,
> 
> You reminded me of "the rest of the story".
> 
> I started at Chrysler in 1949. After two years of on-the-job training I
> started a regular job as an engineer in the Engine Development 
> Laboratory.
> My specific job was as a project engineer on the development of the 
> Dodge
> Red Ram V-8  hemi engine. At that time (1950-51) it was standard 
> practice to
> put hardened exhaust valve seat inserts in all our engines. Then 
> somebody -
> I don't know who - discovered that with leaded gasoline the hardened 
> valve
> seats were not required.'' So - we took the hardened valve seats out to 
> save
> the money. Then - along came unleaded gasoline and we were in valve seat
> wear trouble so we induction hardened (cheaper than a hardened insert) 
> the
> valve seat area.
> 
> The mystery in all this is - who was smart enough to know/learn that 
> valve
> seat inserts were not needed with leaded gas?
> 
> Burt Bouwkamp
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "PAUL WENTINK" <randalpark@xxxxxxx>
> To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 3:46 PM
> Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive
> 
> 
> This post from Burt corresponds exactly with my understanding of the
> situation regarding unleaded gas and our cars.
> 
> I will also add that I have been told that through 1955, Chrysler
> automobiles were able to withstand unleaded gas. This wasn't
> deliberate, but rather it was after that the engineers realized that
> since lead prevented valve and valve seat wear, hardened valves and
> seats were not necessary. Beginning in 1956, the cylinder heads were
> changed slightly as a cost saving measure. The engines built from then
> on required leaded fuel to prevent wear for extended high speed
> driving. I would like to know if anyone has also heard this or knows it
> to be true. Remember, lead wasn't added to prevent valve and valve seat
> wear. It was added to eliminate pre-ignition and increase the octane
> levels. The fact that it also allowed for a cost reduction in producing
> engines was a bonus for the bean counters.
> 
> I drove various Imperials as everyday cars in the '70s & '80s, mostly
> my '56 & '65 models. It was in the late 1980's that leaded gas vanished
>  from our area. I began using Bardahl Instead-o-Lead with each fill up.
> At the time, it was rated as a quality product. Also, the speed limits
> were Federally regulated at 55, so whether this additive actually
> worked or not, the engines were not working hard enough to cause much
> damage due to unleaded gas. I discovered that I was using too much of
> the product and eventually it caused the cars not to run well. I had
> the tanks drained and discontinued using it. There are probably two or
> three unused cases somewhere in my garage.
> 
> These days, there are 75 mph speed limits, which means some folks are
> going to drive 80. I think driving our cars using unleaded gas for
> extended periods at these speeds will cause accelerated valve and valve
> seat wear. Rather than relying on an extra cost additive, I plan to
> take it easy on the road. When the cars require valve work, I'll have
> the cylinder heads reconditioned with hardened valves and valve seats.
> 
> I believe that this is the only truly correct approach for me to take,
> particularly since most of my cars are around the point where they
> would be needing valve work as part of the regular maintenance of the
> engine anyway.
> 
> Paul W.
> 
> Paul W.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Burt Bouwkamp <northburt@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 12:42 pm
> Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive
> 
> 
> 
> Michael,
> 
> 
> 
> When we developed and tested the Chrysler engines in the 1950's and
> 1960's we did it with a tetra ethyl lead additive (3 cc's per gallon I
> think) in the gasoline. It worked - in fact the engine relied on the
> lead deposits to avoid valve seat wear at high engine HP outputs. (Wide
> open throttle at high engine speeds results in high valve temperature
> and high speed valve action.)
> 
> 
> 
> Young engineers - such as myself - did not know that lead was providing
> this benefit until we started testing engines with "no lead" gasoline.
> Valve seat recession during testing due to wear required us to
> harden valve seats or add hardened inserts to production engines to use
> unleaded gasoline. You probably remember that the auto and petroleum
> industry used a lead additive - until it was banned - because it was
> the cheapest way to produce gasoline with the octane rating that we
> wanted.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what happens to valve seat wear when you add Marvel
> Mystery Oil or ATF to the gasoline. I use am STP Lead Additive in the
> gas tank of my old cars but they are driven so few miles - and usually
> below 60 MPH - that I doubt that it makes any difference. I only do it
> because I have personally inspected durability test engines (with
> around 1,000 hours operation) with more than 1/4" of valve seat wear
> due to testing with unleaded fuel. If I ever have the engine rebuilt in
> my 1968 Dodge Charger I will have hardened valve seat inserts added.
> 
> 
> 
> Burt Bouwkamp
> 
> 
> 
> ---- Original Message -----
> 
> 
> From: Michael Alexander
> 
> To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 1:01 PM
> 
> Subject: RE: IML: Lead additive
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just bought a bottle of Lead Additive at Advance Auto, which says on
> the bottle â??for older cars which need leaded gasâ??. Anyone have any
> experience with this product?
> 
> I guess my choices for the 1952 Imperial are: Marvel Mystery Oil, ATF,
> or this stuff. Online voting begin!!!
> 
> Seriously though, thanks,
> 
> Michael Alexander
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
>  From: mailing-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:mailing-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gary Wilson
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:01 PM
> To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: IML: Recession Unleaded Gas: MMO vs. ATF
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about running a qt of oil thu the tank but ATF works real
> well because it is a high detergent and helps coat the valves seat like
> leaded gas use to do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> 
> 
> 
> From: YBSHORE@xxxxxxx
> 
> 
> 
> To: mailing-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> 
> 
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 6:17 AM
> 
> 
> 
> Subject: IML: Recession Unleaded Gas: MMO vs. ATF
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fellow Imperialists:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On my 1956 Imperial w/354 Hemi/Torqueflite 3 speed combo, I run a
> Marvel Mystery Oil blend through the fuel tank at every fill-up
> according to the specs on the bottle and have had great luck with it [I
> use it as well in the motor oil] and change the oil quite often, every
> 1500 miles. I wonder, though, if it is providing the same degree of
> 'engine maintenance' that the ATF does/would do with a periodic run
> through. Any thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jack
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In a message dated 10/25/2007 9:03:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> randalpark@xxxxxxx writes:
> 
> 
> 
> like the idea of running a quart of oil through the gas once in a
> while. I have found that it does improve performance.
> 
> Paul W.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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