Re: IML: Lead additive

["Burt Bouwkamp" <northburt@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

In 1949 Chrysler put hardened exhaust valve seat inserts in all engines. At
that time we did not know that hardened seats were not required with leaded
gas.

Burt Bouwkamp

----- Original Message -----
From: <erwood@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive


> So does this apply to the L head 8 in my 49 Imperial or only to the V8's
that came after?
>  -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: PAUL WENTINK <randalpark@xxxxxxx>
> > It sounds like what I was told was correct. That means that 1955 models
> > and earlier can be run on unleaded gas without ill effects, unless the
> > heads have been reconditioned or replaced at some point with those from
> >  a '56 model.
> >
> > As far as the "who done it?" I guess we will never know, as he/she is
> > probably in accounting heaven by now.
> >
> > Paul W.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Burt Bouwkamp <northburt@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Sent: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 7:41 pm
> > Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul,
> >
> > You reminded me of "the rest of the story".
> >
> > I started at Chrysler in 1949. After two years of on-the-job training I
> > started a regular job as an engineer in the Engine Development
> > Laboratory.
> > My specific job was as a project engineer on the development of the
> > Dodge
> > Red Ram V-8  hemi engine. At that time (1950-51) it was standard
> > practice to
> > put hardened exhaust valve seat inserts in all our engines. Then
> > somebody -
> > I don't know who - discovered that with leaded gasoline the hardened
> > valve
> > seats were not required.'' So - we took the hardened valve seats out to
> > save
> > the money. Then - along came unleaded gasoline and we were in valve seat
> > wear trouble so we induction hardened (cheaper than a hardened insert)
> > the
> > valve seat area.
> >
> > The mystery in all this is - who was smart enough to know/learn that
> > valve
> > seat inserts were not needed with leaded gas?
> >
> > Burt Bouwkamp
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "PAUL WENTINK" <randalpark@xxxxxxx>
> > To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 3:46 PM
> > Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive
> >
> >
> > This post from Burt corresponds exactly with my understanding of the
> > situation regarding unleaded gas and our cars.
> >
> > I will also add that I have been told that through 1955, Chrysler
> > automobiles were able to withstand unleaded gas. This wasn't
> > deliberate, but rather it was after that the engineers realized that
> > since lead prevented valve and valve seat wear, hardened valves and
> > seats were not necessary. Beginning in 1956, the cylinder heads were
> > changed slightly as a cost saving measure. The engines built from then
> > on required leaded fuel to prevent wear for extended high speed
> > driving. I would like to know if anyone has also heard this or knows it
> > to be true. Remember, lead wasn't added to prevent valve and valve seat
> > wear. It was added to eliminate pre-ignition and increase the octane
> > levels. The fact that it also allowed for a cost reduction in producing
> > engines was a bonus for the bean counters.
> >
> > I drove various Imperials as everyday cars in the '70s & '80s, mostly
> > my '56 & '65 models. It was in the late 1980's that leaded gas vanished
> >  from our area. I began using Bardahl Instead-o-Lead with each fill up.
> > At the time, it was rated as a quality product. Also, the speed limits
> > were Federally regulated at 55, so whether this additive actually
> > worked or not, the engines were not working hard enough to cause much
> > damage due to unleaded gas. I discovered that I was using too much of
> > the product and eventually it caused the cars not to run well. I had
> > the tanks drained and discontinued using it. There are probably two or
> > three unused cases somewhere in my garage.
> >
> > These days, there are 75 mph speed limits, which means some folks are
> > going to drive 80. I think driving our cars using unleaded gas for
> > extended periods at these speeds will cause accelerated valve and valve
> > seat wear. Rather than relying on an extra cost additive, I plan to
> > take it easy on the road. When the cars require valve work, I'll have
> > the cylinder heads reconditioned with hardened valves and valve seats.
> >
> > I believe that this is the only truly correct approach for me to take,
> > particularly since most of my cars are around the point where they
> > would be needing valve work as part of the regular maintenance of the
> > engine anyway.
> >
> > Paul W.
> >
> > Paul W.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Burt Bouwkamp <northburt@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Sent: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 12:42 pm
> > Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive
> >
> >
> >
> > Michael,
> >
> >
> >
> > When we developed and tested the Chrysler engines in the 1950's and
> > 1960's we did it with a tetra ethyl lead additive (3 cc's per gallon I
> > think) in the gasoline. It worked - in fact the engine relied on the
> > lead deposits to avoid valve seat wear at high engine HP outputs. (Wide
> > open throttle at high engine speeds results in high valve temperature
> > and high speed valve action.)
> >
> >
> >
> > Young engineers - such as myself - did not know that lead was providing
> > this benefit until we started testing engines with "no lead" gasoline.
> > Valve seat recession during testing due to wear required us to
> > harden valve seats or add hardened inserts to production engines to use
> > unleaded gasoline. You probably remember that the auto and petroleum
> > industry used a lead additive - until it was banned - because it was
> > the cheapest way to produce gasoline with the octane rating that we
> > wanted.
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't know what happens to valve seat wear when you add Marvel
> > Mystery Oil or ATF to the gasoline. I use am STP Lead Additive in the
> > gas tank of my old cars but they are driven so few miles - and usually
> > below 60 MPH - that I doubt that it makes any difference. I only do it
> > because I have personally inspected durability test engines (with
> > around 1,000 hours operation) with more than 1/4" of valve seat wear
> > due to testing with unleaded fuel. If I ever have the engine rebuilt in
> > my 1968 Dodge Charger I will have hardened valve seat inserts added.
> >
> >
> >
> > Burt Bouwkamp
> >
> >
> >
> > ---- Original Message -----
> >
> >
> > From: Michael Alexander
> >
> > To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 1:01 PM
> >
> > Subject: RE: IML: Lead additive
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I just bought a bottle of Lead Additive at Advance Auto, which says on
> > the bottle â?ofor older cars which need leaded gasâ??. Anyone have any
> > experience with this product?
> >
> > I guess my choices for the 1952 Imperial are: Marvel Mystery Oil, ATF,
> > or this stuff. Online voting begin!!!
> >
> > Seriously though, thanks,
> >
> > Michael Alexander
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >  From: mailing-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:mailing-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gary Wilson
> > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:01 PM
> > To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: IML: Recession Unleaded Gas: MMO vs. ATF
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't know about running a qt of oil thu the tank but ATF works real
> > well because it is a high detergent and helps coat the valves seat like
> > leaded gas use to do.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> >
> >
> > From: YBSHORE@xxxxxxx
> >
> >
> >
> > To: mailing-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 6:17 AM
> >
> >
> >
> > Subject: IML: Recession Unleaded Gas: MMO vs. ATF
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Fellow Imperialists:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On my 1956 Imperial w/354 Hemi/Torqueflite 3 speed combo, I run a
> > Marvel Mystery Oil blend through the fuel tank at every fill-up
> > according to the specs on the bottle and have had great luck with it [I
> > use it as well in the motor oil] and change the oil quite often, every
> > 1500 miles. I wonder, though, if it is providing the same degree of
> > 'engine maintenance' that the ATF does/would do with a periodic run
> > through. Any thoughts?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Jack
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 10/25/2007 9:03:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> > randalpark@xxxxxxx writes:
> >
> >
> >
> > like the idea of running a quart of oil through the gas once in a
> > while. I have found that it does improve performance.
> >
> > Paul W.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
> > http://mail.aol.com
> >
> > -----------------  http://www.imperialclub.com  -----------------
> > This message was sent to you by the Imperial Mailing List. Please
> > reply to mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and your response will be
> > shared with everyone. Private messages (and attachments) for the
> > Administrators should be sent to iml.webmonster@xxxxxxxxx
> > To UN-SUBSCRIBE, go to http://imperialclub.com/unsubscribe.htm
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------  http://www.imperialclub.com  -----------------
> > This message was sent to you by the Imperial Mailing List. Please
> > reply to mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and your response will be
> > shared with everyone. Private messages (and attachments) for the
> > Administrators should be sent to iml.webmonster@xxxxxxxxx
> > To UN-SUBSCRIBE, go to http://imperialclub.com/unsubscribe.htm
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
> > http://mail.aol.com
> >
> > -----------------  http://www.imperialclub.com  -----------------
> > This message was sent to you by the Imperial Mailing List. Please
> > reply to mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and your response will be
> > shared with everyone. Private messages (and attachments) for the
> > Administrators should be sent to iml.webmonster@xxxxxxxxx
> > To UN-SUBSCRIBE, go to http://imperialclub.com/unsubscribe.htm
> >
>
>
> -----------------  http://www.imperialclub.com  -----------------
> This message was sent to you by the Imperial Mailing List. Please
> reply to mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and your response will be
> shared with everyone. Private messages (and attachments) for the
> Administrators should be sent to iml.webmonster@xxxxxxxxx
> To UN-SUBSCRIBE, go to http://imperialclub.com/unsubscribe.htm
>



-----------------  http://www.imperialclub.com  -----------------
This message was sent to you by the Imperial Mailing List. Please 
reply to mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and your response will be 
shared with everyone. Private messages (and attachments) for the
Administrators should be sent to iml.webmonster@xxxxxxxxx
To UN-SUBSCRIBE, go to http://imperialclub.com/unsubscribe.htm