Re: IML: 391 hemi, 413, 426, 440 engines

[acfownes@xxxxxxxxxxx]

I imagine Burt will know the answer to this question,  but I dont recall anyone explaining to us:

is it mere coincidence that as Chrysler / Imperial expanded the cu. inch size of its engines, they did it by 13 cu inch increments ?

Or was it part of the 'horsepower race' to keep ahead of other manufacturers?  e.g. 390 Thunderbird, 401 Chev, and 430 Wildcat?

Just curious!


Allen Fownes
67 convertible

----- Original Message -----
From: Burt Bouwkamp <northburt@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 6:01 am
Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive

> I don't remember the last year for hardened exhaust valve seat 
> inserts but I
> have asked Bill Weertman, retired Chrysler Chief Engineer of 
> Engines this
> question. I will pass along Bill's answer when he responds.
> 
> Bill just finished writing a book on the history of Chrysler 
> engines and it
> is going to be published this month - or in November. As soon as I 
> find out
> how to buy one I will pass that along as well.
> 
> Burt
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "PAUL WENTINK" <randalpark@xxxxxxx>
> To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 8:19 PM
> Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive
> 
> 
> Answer from Paul, yes 1952 had hardened valves and seats. We should
> still have Burt let s know if '55 was the last year, but I believe it
> was.
> 
> Paul W.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Alexander <mistermda@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 10:50 am
> Subject: RE: IML: Lead additive
> 
> 
> 
> Question to Burt:
> This makes sense. I drove my 1954 Imperial from Fla. to California and
> subsequently 163,000 miles in the 70's on regular gas. Was it leaded
> then?
> My 1952 Imperial seems to run fine on unleaded.
> 
> What year did Chrysler stop putting hardened valve seats in all 
> engines?Was it 1956, as Paul heard?
> Specifically, do you think my 1952 has them?
> Michael Alexander
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mailing-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:mailing-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Burt 
> BouwkampSent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 12:13 PM
> To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive
> 
> In 1949 Chrysler put hardened exhaust valve seat inserts in all
> engines. At
> that time we did not know that hardened seats were not required with
> leaded
> gas.
> 
> Burt Bouwkamp
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <erwood@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 9:19 AM
> Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive
> 
> 
> > So does this apply to the L head 8 in my 49 Imperial or only to the
> V8's
> that came after?
> >  -------------- Original message ----------------------
> > From: PAUL WENTINK <randalpark@xxxxxxx>
> > > It sounds like what I was told was correct. That means that 1955
> models
> > > and earlier can be run on unleaded gas without ill effects, unless
> the
> > > heads have been reconditioned or replaced at some point with those
> from
> > >  a '56 model.
> > >
> > > As far as the "who done it?" I guess we will never know, as he/she
> is
> > > probably in accounting heaven by now.
> > >
> > > Paul W.
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Burt Bouwkamp <northburt@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Sent: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 7:41 pm
> > > Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Paul,
> > >
> > > You reminded me of "the rest of the story".
> > >
> > > I started at Chrysler in 1949. After two years of on-the-job
> training I
> > > started a regular job as an engineer in the Engine Development
> > > Laboratory.
> > > My specific job was as a project engineer on the development 
> of the
> > > Dodge
> > > Red Ram V-8  hemi engine. At that time (1950-51) it was standard
> > > practice to
> > > put hardened exhaust valve seat inserts in all our engines. Then
> > > somebody -
> > > I don't know who - discovered that with leaded gasoline the 
> hardened> > valve
> > > seats were not required.'' So - we took the hardened valve seats
> out to
> > > save
> > > the money. Then - along came unleaded gasoline and we were in 
> valveseat
> > > wear trouble so we induction hardened (cheaper than a hardened
> insert)
> > > the
> > > valve seat area.
> > >
> > > The mystery in all this is - who was smart enough to 
> know/learn that
> > > valve
> > > seat inserts were not needed with leaded gas?
> > >
> > > Burt Bouwkamp
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "PAUL WENTINK" <randalpark@xxxxxxx>
> > > To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 3:46 PM
> > > Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive
> > >
> > >
> > > This post from Burt corresponds exactly with my understanding 
> of the
> > > situation regarding unleaded gas and our cars.
> > >
> > > I will also add that I have been told that through 1955, Chrysler
> > > automobiles were able to withstand unleaded gas. This wasn't
> > > deliberate, but rather it was after that the engineers 
> realized that
> > > since lead prevented valve and valve seat wear, hardened 
> valves and
> > > seats were not necessary. Beginning in 1956, the cylinder 
> heads were
> > > changed slightly as a cost saving measure. The engines built from
> then
> > > on required leaded fuel to prevent wear for extended high speed
> > > driving. I would like to know if anyone has also heard this or
> knows it
> > > to be true. Remember, lead wasn't added to prevent valve and valve
> seat
> > > wear. It was added to eliminate pre-ignition and increase the 
> octane> > levels. The fact that it also allowed for a cost 
> reduction in
> producing
> > > engines was a bonus for the bean counters.
> > >
> > > I drove various Imperials as everyday cars in the '70s & '80s,
> mostly
> > > my '56 & '65 models. It was in the late 1980's that leaded gas
> vanished
> > >  from our area. I began using Bardahl Instead-o-Lead with each 
> fillup.
> > > At the time, it was rated as a quality product. Also, the speed
> limits
> > > were Federally regulated at 55, so whether this additive actually
> > > worked or not, the engines were not working hard enough to cause
> much
> > > damage due to unleaded gas. I discovered that I was using too much
> of
> > > the product and eventually it caused the cars not to run well. 
> I had
> > > the tanks drained and discontinued using it. There are 
> probably two
> or
> > > three unused cases somewhere in my garage.
> > >
> > > These days, there are 75 mph speed limits, which means some folks
> are
> > > going to drive 80. I think driving our cars using unleaded gas for
> > > extended periods at these speeds will cause accelerated valve and
> valve
> > > seat wear. Rather than relying on an extra cost additive, I 
> plan to
> > > take it easy on the road. When the cars require valve work, I'll
> have
> > > the cylinder heads reconditioned with hardened valves and valve
> seats.
> > >
> > > I believe that this is the only truly correct approach for me to
> take,
> > > particularly since most of my cars are around the point where they
> > > would be needing valve work as part of the regular maintenance of
> the
> > > engine anyway.
> > >
> > > Paul W.
> > >
> > > Paul W.
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Burt Bouwkamp <northburt@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Sent: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 12:42 pm
> > > Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Michael,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > When we developed and tested the Chrysler engines in the 
> 1950's and
> > > 1960's we did it with a tetra ethyl lead additive (3 cc's per
> gallon I
> > > think) in the gasoline. It worked - in fact the engine relied 
> on the
> > > lead deposits to avoid valve seat wear at high engine HP outputs.
> (Wide
> > > open throttle at high engine speeds results in high valve
> temperature
> > > and high speed valve action.)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Young engineers - such as myself - did not know that lead was
> providing
> > > this benefit until we started testing engines with "no lead"
> gasoline.
> > > Valve seat recession during testing due to wear required us to
> > > harden valve seats or add hardened inserts to production 
> engines to
> use
> > > unleaded gasoline. You probably remember that the auto and 
> petroleum> > industry used a lead additive - until it was banned - 
> because it was
> > > the cheapest way to produce gasoline with the octane rating 
> that we
> > > wanted.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't know what happens to valve seat wear when you add Marvel
> > > Mystery Oil or ATF to the gasoline. I use am STP Lead Additive in
> the
> > > gas tank of my old cars but they are driven so few miles - and
> usually
> > > below 60 MPH - that I doubt that it makes any difference. I 
> only do
> it
> > > because I have personally inspected durability test engines (with
> > > around 1,000 hours operation) with more than 1/4" of valve 
> seat wear
> > > due to testing with unleaded fuel. If I ever have the engine
> rebuilt in
> > > my 1968 Dodge Charger I will have hardened valve seat inserts 
> added.> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Burt Bouwkamp
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---- Original Message -----
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Michael Alexander
> > >
> > > To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 1:01 PM
> > >
> > > Subject: RE: IML: Lead additive
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I just bought a bottle of Lead Additive at Advance Auto, which 
> sayson
> > > the bottle â?ofor older cars which need leaded gasâ??. Anyone have
> any
> > > experience with this product?
> > >
> > > I guess my choices for the 1952 Imperial are: Marvel Mystery Oil,
> ATF,
> > > or this stuff. Online voting begin!!!
> > >
> > > Seriously though, thanks,
> > >
> > > Michael Alexander
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >  From: mailing-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > [mailto:mailing-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gary
> Wilson
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:01 PM
> > > To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: Re: IML: Recession Unleaded Gas: MMO vs. ATF
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't know about running a qt of oil thu the tank but ATF works
> real
> > > well because it is a high detergent and helps coat the valves seat
> like
> > > leaded gas use to do.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: YBSHORE@xxxxxxx
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To: mailing-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
> mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 6:17 AM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Subject: IML: Recession Unleaded Gas: MMO vs. ATF
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Fellow Imperialists:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On my 1956 Imperial w/354 Hemi/Torqueflite 3 speed combo, I 
> run a
> > > Marvel Mystery Oil blend through the fuel tank at every fill-up
> > > according to the specs on the bottle and have had great luck with
> it [I
> > > use it as well in the motor oil] and change the oil quite often,
> every
> > > 1500 miles. I wonder, though, if it is providing the same 
> degree of
> > > 'engine maintenance' that the ATF does/would do with a 
> periodic run
> > > through. Any thoughts?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Jack
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 10/25/2007 9:03:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> > > randalpark@xxxxxxx writes:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > like the idea of running a quart of oil through the gas once 
> in a
> > > while. I have found that it does improve performance.
> > >
> > > Paul W.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> ________________________________________________________________________
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