Re: IML: 391 hemi, 413, 426, 440 engines

["Burt Bouwkamp" <northburt@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Allen,

It was the HP race. In those days "bigger was better" so we all tried to
have the biggest engines, wheelbase, OAL, etc. Looking back at it it was
kind of silly. (Today, it's "who has the most cup holders?")

In 1975 I moved to Europe with Chrysler to head up the Chrysler Europe
product design/development office. I realized in a short time that in the
USA our standards then for braking and handling were not high enough for the
world automobile market. 2500 pound VW's had the same brake sizes as 4200
pound New Yorkers! All cars - even Simca Mille's (Chrysler France's lowest
priced product) - had rear brake proportioning valves.

Also, the Europeans put greater emphasis on an efficient exterior
dimensional package. Early in the "packaging" phase of the Chrysler Horizon
(same design as the USA Horizon/Omni) Leo Kuzmicki, who was Chief Engineer
of Advance Design, asked me to come to the drafting room to see a layout
where his designers had figured out how to reduce front overhang (FOH) by
1/2" - from 29" to 28 1/2" I think.  Dick Newman, an Advance Design
engineer, proudly presented the results of their packaging study. This was a
memorable event for me because I had just come from the Chrysler USA where
we added 3" - or more - to front overhang on a whim. Reducing front overhang
was a virtue in Europe!

I learned a lot in Europe and was still relishing this new assignment when
in 1979 Chrysler sold our European companies to Peugeot.

Burt Bouwkamp

----- Original Message -----
From: <acfownes@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 4:43 AM
Subject: Re: IML: 391 hemi, 413, 426, 440 engines



I imagine Burt will know the answer to this question,  but I dont recall
anyone explaining to us:

is it mere coincidence that as Chrysler / Imperial expanded the cu. inch
size of its engines, they did it by 13 cu inch increments ?

Or was it part of the 'horsepower race' to keep ahead of other
manufacturers?  e.g. 390 Thunderbird, 401 Chev, and 430 Wildcat?

Just curious!


Allen Fownes
67 convertible

----- Original Message -----
From: Burt Bouwkamp <northburt@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 6:01 am
Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive

> I don't remember the last year for hardened exhaust valve seat
> inserts but I
> have asked Bill Weertman, retired Chrysler Chief Engineer of
> Engines this
> question. I will pass along Bill's answer when he responds.
>
> Bill just finished writing a book on the history of Chrysler
> engines and it
> is going to be published this month - or in November. As soon as I
> find out
> how to buy one I will pass that along as well.
>
> Burt
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "PAUL WENTINK" <randalpark@xxxxxxx>
> To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 8:19 PM
> Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive
>
>
> Answer from Paul, yes 1952 had hardened valves and seats. We should
> still have Burt let s know if '55 was the last year, but I believe it
> was.
>
> Paul W.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Alexander <mistermda@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 10:50 am
> Subject: RE: IML: Lead additive
>
>
>
> Question to Burt:
> This makes sense. I drove my 1954 Imperial from Fla. to California and
> subsequently 163,000 miles in the 70's on regular gas. Was it leaded
> then?
> My 1952 Imperial seems to run fine on unleaded.
>
> What year did Chrysler stop putting hardened valve seats in all
> engines?Was it 1956, as Paul heard?
> Specifically, do you think my 1952 has them?
> Michael Alexander
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mailing-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:mailing-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Burt
> BouwkampSent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 12:13 PM
> To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive
>
> In 1949 Chrysler put hardened exhaust valve seat inserts in all
> engines. At
> that time we did not know that hardened seats were not required with
> leaded
> gas.
>
> Burt Bouwkamp
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <erwood@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 9:19 AM
> Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive
>
>
> > So does this apply to the L head 8 in my 49 Imperial or only to the
> V8's
> that came after?
> >  -------------- Original message ----------------------
> > From: PAUL WENTINK <randalpark@xxxxxxx>
> > > It sounds like what I was told was correct. That means that 1955
> models
> > > and earlier can be run on unleaded gas without ill effects, unless
> the
> > > heads have been reconditioned or replaced at some point with those
> from
> > >  a '56 model.
> > >
> > > As far as the "who done it?" I guess we will never know, as he/she
> is
> > > probably in accounting heaven by now.
> > >
> > > Paul W.
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Burt Bouwkamp <northburt@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Sent: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 7:41 pm
> > > Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Paul,
> > >
> > > You reminded me of "the rest of the story".
> > >
> > > I started at Chrysler in 1949. After two years of on-the-job
> training I
> > > started a regular job as an engineer in the Engine Development
> > > Laboratory.
> > > My specific job was as a project engineer on the development
> of the
> > > Dodge
> > > Red Ram V-8  hemi engine. At that time (1950-51) it was standard
> > > practice to
> > > put hardened exhaust valve seat inserts in all our engines. Then
> > > somebody -
> > > I don't know who - discovered that with leaded gasoline the
> hardened> > valve
> > > seats were not required.'' So - we took the hardened valve seats
> out to
> > > save
> > > the money. Then - along came unleaded gasoline and we were in
> valveseat
> > > wear trouble so we induction hardened (cheaper than a hardened
> insert)
> > > the
> > > valve seat area.
> > >
> > > The mystery in all this is - who was smart enough to
> know/learn that
> > > valve
> > > seat inserts were not needed with leaded gas?
> > >
> > > Burt Bouwkamp
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "PAUL WENTINK" <randalpark@xxxxxxx>
> > > To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 3:46 PM
> > > Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive
> > >
> > >
> > > This post from Burt corresponds exactly with my understanding
> of the
> > > situation regarding unleaded gas and our cars.
> > >
> > > I will also add that I have been told that through 1955, Chrysler
> > > automobiles were able to withstand unleaded gas. This wasn't
> > > deliberate, but rather it was after that the engineers
> realized that
> > > since lead prevented valve and valve seat wear, hardened
> valves and
> > > seats were not necessary. Beginning in 1956, the cylinder
> heads were
> > > changed slightly as a cost saving measure. The engines built from
> then
> > > on required leaded fuel to prevent wear for extended high speed
> > > driving. I would like to know if anyone has also heard this or
> knows it
> > > to be true. Remember, lead wasn't added to prevent valve and valve
> seat
> > > wear. It was added to eliminate pre-ignition and increase the
> octane> > levels. The fact that it also allowed for a cost
> reduction in
> producing
> > > engines was a bonus for the bean counters.
> > >
> > > I drove various Imperials as everyday cars in the '70s & '80s,
> mostly
> > > my '56 & '65 models. It was in the late 1980's that leaded gas
> vanished
> > >  from our area. I began using Bardahl Instead-o-Lead with each
> fillup.
> > > At the time, it was rated as a quality product. Also, the speed
> limits
> > > were Federally regulated at 55, so whether this additive actually
> > > worked or not, the engines were not working hard enough to cause
> much
> > > damage due to unleaded gas. I discovered that I was using too much
> of
> > > the product and eventually it caused the cars not to run well.
> I had
> > > the tanks drained and discontinued using it. There are
> probably two
> or
> > > three unused cases somewhere in my garage.
> > >
> > > These days, there are 75 mph speed limits, which means some folks
> are
> > > going to drive 80. I think driving our cars using unleaded gas for
> > > extended periods at these speeds will cause accelerated valve and
> valve
> > > seat wear. Rather than relying on an extra cost additive, I
> plan to
> > > take it easy on the road. When the cars require valve work, I'll
> have
> > > the cylinder heads reconditioned with hardened valves and valve
> seats.
> > >
> > > I believe that this is the only truly correct approach for me to
> take,
> > > particularly since most of my cars are around the point where they
> > > would be needing valve work as part of the regular maintenance of
> the
> > > engine anyway.
> > >
> > > Paul W.
> > >
> > > Paul W.
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Burt Bouwkamp <northburt@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Sent: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 12:42 pm
> > > Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Michael,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > When we developed and tested the Chrysler engines in the
> 1950's and
> > > 1960's we did it with a tetra ethyl lead additive (3 cc's per
> gallon I
> > > think) in the gasoline. It worked - in fact the engine relied
> on the
> > > lead deposits to avoid valve seat wear at high engine HP outputs.
> (Wide
> > > open throttle at high engine speeds results in high valve
> temperature
> > > and high speed valve action.)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Young engineers - such as myself - did not know that lead was
> providing
> > > this benefit until we started testing engines with "no lead"
> gasoline.
> > > Valve seat recession during testing due to wear required us to
> > > harden valve seats or add hardened inserts to production
> engines to
> use
> > > unleaded gasoline. You probably remember that the auto and
> petroleum> > industry used a lead additive - until it was banned -
> because it was
> > > the cheapest way to produce gasoline with the octane rating
> that we
> > > wanted.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't know what happens to valve seat wear when you add Marvel
> > > Mystery Oil or ATF to the gasoline. I use am STP Lead Additive in
> the
> > > gas tank of my old cars but they are driven so few miles - and
> usually
> > > below 60 MPH - that I doubt that it makes any difference. I
> only do
> it
> > > because I have personally inspected durability test engines (with
> > > around 1,000 hours operation) with more than 1/4" of valve
> seat wear
> > > due to testing with unleaded fuel. If I ever have the engine
> rebuilt in
> > > my 1968 Dodge Charger I will have hardened valve seat inserts
> added.> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Burt Bouwkamp
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---- Original Message -----
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Michael Alexander
> > >
> > > To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 1:01 PM
> > >
> > > Subject: RE: IML: Lead additive
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I just bought a bottle of Lead Additive at Advance Auto, which
> sayson
> > > the bottle â?ofor older cars which need leaded gasâ??. Anyone have
> any
> > > experience with this product?
> > >
> > > I guess my choices for the 1952 Imperial are: Marvel Mystery Oil,
> ATF,
> > > or this stuff. Online voting begin!!!
> > >
> > > Seriously though, thanks,
> > >
> > > Michael Alexander
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >  From: mailing-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > [mailto:mailing-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gary
> Wilson
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:01 PM
> > > To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: Re: IML: Recession Unleaded Gas: MMO vs. ATF
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't know about running a qt of oil thu the tank but ATF works
> real
> > > well because it is a high detergent and helps coat the valves seat
> like
> > > leaded gas use to do.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: YBSHORE@xxxxxxx
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To: mailing-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
> mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 6:17 AM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Subject: IML: Recession Unleaded Gas: MMO vs. ATF
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Fellow Imperialists:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On my 1956 Imperial w/354 Hemi/Torqueflite 3 speed combo, I
> run a
> > > Marvel Mystery Oil blend through the fuel tank at every fill-up
> > > according to the specs on the bottle and have had great luck with
> it [I
> > > use it as well in the motor oil] and change the oil quite often,
> every
> > > 1500 miles. I wonder, though, if it is providing the same
> degree of
> > > 'engine maintenance' that the ATF does/would do with a
> periodic run
> > > through. Any thoughts?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Jack
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 10/25/2007 9:03:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> > > randalpark@xxxxxxx writes:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > like the idea of running a quart of oil through the gas once
> in a
> > > while. I have found that it does improve performance.
> > >
> > > Paul W.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > > See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> ________________________________________________________________________
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