[Chrysler300] Re: Balancing Act

["Roger Schaaf" <obiwan10@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Probably the fastest(I did not say easy) method to find the heavy spot on a tire is to check the wheel for its heavy point, mark this point, mount the tire, check balance and see where the heavy point now is in reference to the mark that had been made on the wheel.

However the problem now becomes this.  Is the heavy point on the outside of the tire or on the inside.  This difference can often be the problem where you have a tire/wheel in perfect static balance and yet have a wobble or vibration in your steering wheel.  This is where the dynamic balance requirement comes in.  Now it gets complicated.  I have not done it(but now I guess I will), but I suspect that a Google(again) search will give you more information then your brain cells would wish to absorb on this topic.

Roger Schaaf
300 B, Calyfornua
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rich Barber 
  To: Ray Jones ; Roger Schaaf ; Warren Anderson ; Listserver ; macthehammer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 11:39 PM
  Subject: Balancing Act


  The wheel/tire balancing and tube vs. tubeless thread has been amazing and informative. Thanks to all that contributed.   

  I understand and appreciate the concept of a wheel and tire each having their own imbalance and
  I recall previous guidance to locate the heaviest portions of the wheel and tire separately, 
  then place them opposite to each other before starting the balancing process.

  Sounds reasonable and I suppose there are several ways to find the heaviest point on the rim.  

  My question is:  how does one find the heaviest point on an unmounted tire?  Obviously, if the tire has 
  been poorly designed or fabricated with excessive overlap of plies and tread, balancing will be difficult and
  require more weights.  Ultimately, a buyer would select their tires from a rack full of candidates based on 
  roundness and inherent imbalance.  Try that at Tires-R-Us!

  Perhaps one could use a perfectly-balanced armature that would center and support the tire on a horizontal 
  spindle or even on an old "bubble balancer".

  When I had my tubed Remingtons mounted on the Motor Wheel wires, the tire technician was 
  very sensitive to protecting the appearance of the rims and used the proper procedure to install the tubes and tires
  while babying the rims on the tire changing machine.   He mounted all the clip-on weights on the inside of the rim 
  at my direction as if this were common practice with the sport wheel customers.  

  And several of the tire-wheel combos required a lot of lead.

  Based on what I've heard from you guys, when I get to supervise that process again, 
  I'll consider having the tech find the heavy points on each wheel and tire, have them mounted 
  in opposition and then use the stick-on lead tape on the inside of the center hub to achieve 
  some of the dynamic balance while preserving the attractive appearance of the chrome rims.

  I'd be up front in agreeing to pay a premium for this premium service.

  Any thoughts you may have on this process would be appreciated.

  Rich Barber
  Brentwood, CA (getting chilly-just dropped below 40!)
  1955 CCC

  Ray Jones wrote:

Roger, it looks like they should have been willing to help in any way 
they could. In your case, which is not the norm, you are a great 
customer, and should be treated as such. But your original post proves 
my point, it's not the kind of job they are used to. Or  equipped to 
do. I also must watch and/or be involved when I let others work on my 
stuff. I'm a retired Master Tech and know how I want it done. I worked 
all my Professional career as a "flat rate" mechanic. I retired not as 
wealthy as I could, by selling my customers only what they really 
needed right now and advised them what would be  needed later. I always 
felt it was better to have loyal customers than angry ones.
I don't even want to think about what goes on in the kitchen....

I worked on quite a few cars with very pricey wheels and very picky 
owners. It was a fun challenge  to me to keep the added weight to a 
minimum. Also, less chance to have a "comeback" from a thrown weight.

Chrysler 300 lesson here is: Balance and mark  the wheel first, then 
add the tire. Slower, but more precise.
Regards, Ray


On Jan 4, 2005, at 10:24 PM, Roger Schaaf wrote:

  14.00 per hour at this store for these guys.   You are correct that I 
did
not buy the tires there as they do not sell Diamondbacks, however have
purchased 6 new sets of tires from these guys the past 4 years.  My 
family
members and neighbors have also given their business to these folks.  
The
last set cost me 280.00 per tire for my XJR Jag(18 inch wheels).  So I 
am
not just an average rumdum customer who buys his tires elsewhere at a 
cheap
price and have someone else mount them just to save a few bucks.  My 
real
point was that never trust anyone to mount your tires if you are not 
there
to watch and guide.  In fact I hate to have any work of any kind done 
on my
cars or motorcycles by any shop where I can not watch the action.  As 
most
of us know and can all relate tales of woe, a large percentage of them 
are
totally incompetent, will cheat you royally when given the 
opportunity, sell
you much of what you do not need at grossly inflated labor 
charges(perhaps
you all have not heard of the so called "flat rate scheme" so popular 
in
California.  I know there are many honest competent shops out there, 
but
picking the pepper out of the flyspecks is about as hard as buying the 
right
stocks that will be going up and not be going down.  So I do most all 
of my
own work and service where possible.  I have the same feeling when 
eating in
restaurants where I cannot see what is going on in the kitchen.  Would
probably really give me a good case of religion if I did however.

Taping or gluing weights on the insides of the wheels is what I was
suggesting as a method to almost get a good dynamic balance in the 
hands of
a competent tire guy using a decent balancer.  Most guys either cannot 
or
will not take the time(preferring to just pound a bunch of weights on 
the
outside of your multi-hundred dollar aluminum or wire wheels).

Take a look at the beat up edges of some of the aluminum wheels that 
you
will see on late model cars.  Much of what you see could be curb rash, 
but a
large percentage of it, is the result of mounting/dismounting of tires 
using
machines not designed to protect these wheels from damage and or poorly
trained technicians who should be doing some other line of work.  
Someone
else noted too, those who just "cinch" them up with their 400 ft pound 
air
wrench, thereby stripping threads or warping hubs and wheels.  Watch 
the
action when they remove your lug bolts with their 400 pound air wrench 
when
they are doing your reverse threads on your 300.

Does all this make anyone else want to watch next time you get your 
tires
mounted at Costco?

Roger Schaaf
300 B Calif
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Jones" <hurst300@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Warren Anderson" <wranderson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "Listserver" <Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
<macthehammer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Roger Schaaf" <obiwan10@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] Causion


    There were 2 basic problems with this tire story.
First and foremost, THEY did NOT sell the tires. (So don't care much)
Secondly, anybody working there for minimum wage isn't that interested
in mounting  "Problem"  tires, not to mention "tubes". What the heck
are they?. Most kids have never  seen them.

And if they didn't know how to  balance Statically (just measure the
wheel and push some buttons on the Balancer), they don't need to work
on my tires.

Before retiring, I worked at an Acura dealer and was the NSX tech. Had
to mount and balance tires on them and each tire was different. Fronts
and Backs and Lefts and Rights. You just had to focus!
  I always spun the bare rim first and marked it's heavy spot, if any.
Then when balancing the tire/rim assembly, if the heavy spot was near
where the rims heavy spot was,  I broke it down and shifted the tire
around the rim to get a better (less or no weight) balance.

And when balancing, I hid stick-on  weights behind the webs, almost
dynamic balancing. I deal now with a "good ol' boy" Rural shop, and
they mount everything from 8" wheelbarrow tires to 38" Heavy equipment
tires. Some with tubes and tread liners. They also have a pipe bender
and custom make duals....you ought to hear my Dakota!

Ray

It's getting time for y'all to be polishing up your rides for the
Spring Meet! Be there, or be Square!  Ray Jones

On Jan 4, 2005, at 11:02 AM, Warren Anderson wrote:

      
        A couple of years ago I replaced my bias Remington's with 
Diamondback
radials(had to do this twice as on the first set the whitewalls all
turned
brown).  I had ordered them by phone and when they arrived by UPS, I
threw
them in my B and headed for the local tire store to have them 
mounted.
          Mind
        you this was a store called Wheel Works and they were one of many
stores
          of
        a large chain of tire stores who you would assume would know 
something
          about
        tires and TUBES.
          We have seen a number of serious problems generated by tire shops. 
Big
chain
tire shops and local specialists. One common big mistake they make is
in the
use of air tools to reach final wheel fastener torque. With or 
without
'Torque Sticks', air wrenches on street driven vehicles cause a lot 
of
problems. I did notice that the Flagstaff Sam's Club tire shop uses
manual
torque wrenches.

A rotating static balance can be accomplished with weights in only 
one
plain. The dynamic balance is only accomplished with wheel weights in
two
planes (when weights are required).

It is good practice to powder (talc and I have used baby powder when 
I
did
not have tire talc) the inside of tires when tubes are used. Always
inflate
fully and deflate then reinflate to road use pressure.

Tire shops that deal with passenger car tires and truck tires should
have
people that can deal with tube tires in an expert manner.

We are not a tire shop but do work with tires like the ones on a 
local
fleet
of Hummers http://hummeraffair.com/. The tires are bias ply things 
from
Mickey Thompson as all radial tire production is supposedly going to
Iraq.
Run flats for these vehicles are GREASE lubricated between the outer
and
inners. These we will not be working with; one very good man, one
hard, full
day to change out four tires we have been told.

Warren Anderson
Sedona,AZ


              
    


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