[Chrysler300] Re: Balancing Act

[Ray Jones <hurst300@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Rich;
The way to find the heaviest point on the tire is to balance the assy. 
after knowing the beginning imbalance of the wheel. No need to balance 
the tire by itself, I doubt it can be done outside of a testing 
facility.

You first balance the rim, note the high spot, and mark those spots 
with tape or a dab of ink.
If you really want to get fancy note both the dynamic and static 
locations. This lets you play with it more. All the computer balancers 
I've used for the last 20 years or so changed the display from one to 
the other at the push of a button.
Then mount the tire, (most tires have a spot marked on them for the 
valve stem location) and rebalance.
This gives you the assy.  balance. See where it wants weight, check 
your marks and then decide how to shift the tire.
For example, it it wants 2 oz. here, and you see that the rim wanted 1 
oz. at about the same place, then turn the tire 180° and recheck. one 
imbalance may cancel out the other. Rarely that easy! If they are X° 
apart, then you gotta guess, or use experience to reset the tire. If 
you have the time to play with it, you can get it down to very little 
weight.
I did this with all my own tires even tho they weren't on fancy rims 
and I was putting the weights on the edges. I just hate using more than 
1 oz. per edge. I've balanced this way most of my career, and as a 
result got or had to help on, all the problem balance jobs in my shop. 
Some shops might allow you to do it your self, if you get out of the 
way when they need the machines and if you're a past good customer and 
suchlike.

Also note that my mention of using stick-on weights was on Mags, and 
they went inside the wide spokes, as close to the outside edge as I 
could. I also had to alter the weight  it called for, since the weight 
was closer to the center point.

And as noted in Rich's post some tires are massively out of balance 
from the get-go. Avoid using them, return if possible.
Very likely showing a defect of some kind in the tire. The reason they 
needed lots of lead on the wires is that the wheel was being balanced 
dynamically, and the weights were being placed statically, but all in 
one plane. Doesn't work much at all, and usually ends up wearing flat 
spots on the tread here and there.

Regards, Ray
Nifty neat stuff gonna be ahappening at the Spring Meet...Y'all gotta 
come and play with us!  Ray


On Jan 5, 2005, at 1:39 AM, Rich Barber wrote:

> The wheel/tire balancing and tube vs. tubeless thread has been amazing 
> and informative. Thanks to all that contributed. ?
>
> I understand and appreciate the concept of a wheel and tire each 
> having their own imbalance and
> I recall previous guidance to locate the heaviest portions of the 
> wheel and tire separately,
> then place them opposite to each other before starting the balancing 
> process.
>
> Sounds reasonable and I suppose there are several ways to find the 
> heaviest point on the rim.?
>
> My question is:? how does one find the heaviest point on an unmounted 
> tire?? Obviously, if the tire has
> been poorly designed or fabricated with excessive overlap of plies and 
> tread, balancing will be difficult and
> require more weights.? Ultimately, a buyer would select their tires 
> from a rack full of candidates based on
> roundness and inherent imbalance.? Try that at Tires-R-Us!
>
> Perhaps one could use a perfectly-balanced armature that would center 
> and support the tire on a horizontal
> spindle or even on an old "bubble balancer".
>
> When I had my tubed Remingtons mounted on the Motor Wheel wires, the 
> tire technician was
> very sensitive to protecting the appearance of the rims and used the 
> proper procedure to install the tubes and tires
> while babying the rims on the tire changing machine.?? He mounted all 
> the clip-on weights on the inside of the rim
> at my direction as if this were common practice with the sport wheel 
> customers.?
>
> And several of the tire-wheel combos required a lot of lead.
>
> Based on what I've heard from you guys, when I get to supervise that 
> process again,
> I'll consider having the tech find the heavy points on each wheel and 
> tire, have them mounted
> in opposition and then use the stick-on lead tape on the inside of the 
> center hub to achieve
> some of the dynamic balance while preserving the attractive appearance 
> of the chrome rims.
>
> I'd be up front in agreeing to pay a premium for this premium service.
>
> Any thoughts you may have on this process would be appreciated.
>
> Rich Barber
> Brentwood, CA (getting chilly-just dropped below 40!)
> 1955 CCC
>
> Ray Jones wrote:
>
> Roger, it looks like they should have been willing to help in any way
> they could. In your case, which is not the norm, you are a great
> customer, and should be treated as such. But your original post proves
> my point, it's not the kind of job they are used to. Or  equipped to
> do. I also must watch and/or be involved when I let others work on my
> stuff. I'm a retired Master Tech and know how I want it done. I worked
> all my Professional career as a "flat rate" mechanic. I retired not as
> wealthy as I could, by selling my customers only what they really
> needed right now and advised them what would be  needed later. I always
> felt it was better to have loyal customers than angry ones.
> I don't even want to think about what goes on in the kitchen....
>
> I worked on quite a few cars with very pricey wheels and very picky
> owners. It was a fun challenge  to me to keep the added weight to a
> minimum. Also, less chance to have a "comeback" from a thrown weight.
>
> Chrysler 300 lesson here is: Balance and mark  the wheel first, then
> add the tire. Slower, but more precise.
> Regards, Ray
>
>
> On Jan 4, 2005, at 10:24 PM, Roger Schaaf wrote:
>
>
> 14.00 per hour at this store for these guys.   You are correct that I
> did
> not buy the tires there as they do not sell Diamondbacks, however have
> purchased 6 new sets of tires from these guys the past 4 years.  My
> family
> members and neighbors have also given their business to these folks.
> The
> last set cost me 280.00 per tire for my XJR Jag(18 inch wheels).  So I
> am
> not just an average rumdum customer who buys his tires elsewhere at a
> cheap
> price and have someone else mount them just to save a few bucks.  My
> real
> point was that never trust anyone to mount your tires if you are not
> there
> to watch and guide.  In fact I hate to have any work of any kind done
> on my
> cars or motorcycles by any shop where I can not watch the action.  As
> most
> of us know and can all relate tales of woe, a large percentage of them
> are
> totally incompetent, will cheat you royally when given the
> opportunity, sell
> you much of what you do not need at grossly inflated labor
> charges(perhaps
> you all have not heard of the so called "flat rate scheme" so popular
> in
> California.  I know there are many honest competent shops out there,
> but
> picking the pepper out of the flyspecks is about as hard as buying the
> right
> stocks that will be going up and not be going down.  So I do most all
> of my
> own work and service where possible.  I have the same feeling when
> eating in
> restaurants where I cannot see what is going on in the kitchen.  Would
> probably really give me a good case of religion if I did however.
>
> Taping or gluing weights on the insides of the wheels is what I was
> suggesting as a method to almost get a good dynamic balance in the
> hands of
> a competent tire guy using a decent balancer.  Most guys either cannot
> or
> will not take the time(preferring to just pound a bunch of weights on
> the
> outside of your multi-hundred dollar aluminum or wire wheels).
>
> Take a look at the beat up edges of some of the aluminum wheels that
> you
> will see on late model cars.  Much of what you see could be curb rash,
> but a
> large percentage of it, is the result of mounting/dismounting of tires
> using
> machines not designed to protect these wheels from damage and or poorly
> trained technicians who should be doing some other line of work.
> Someone
> else noted too, those who just "cinch" them up with their 400 ft pound
> air
> wrench, thereby stripping threads or warping hubs and wheels.  Watch
> the
> action when they remove your lug bolts with their 400 pound air wrench
> when
> they are doing your reverse threads on your 300.
>
> Does all this make anyone else want to watch next time you get your
> tires
> mounted at Costco?
>
> Roger Schaaf
> 300 B Calif
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ray Jones" <hurst300@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: "Warren Anderson" <wranderson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Cc: "Listserver" <Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
> <macthehammer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Roger Schaaf" <obiwan10@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 2:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] Causion
>
>
>
> There were 2 basic problems with this tire story.
> First and foremost, THEY did NOT sell the tires. (So don't care much)
> Secondly, anybody working there for minimum wage isn't that interested
> in mounting  "Problem"  tires, not to mention "tubes". What the heck
> are they?. Most kids have never  seen them.
>
> And if they didn't know how to  balance Statically (just measure the
> wheel and push some buttons on the Balancer), they don't need to work
> on my tires.
>
> Before retiring, I worked at an Acura dealer and was the NSX tech. Had
> to mount and balance tires on them and each tire was different. Fronts
> and Backs and Lefts and Rights. You just had to focus!
>   I always spun the bare rim first and marked it's heavy spot, if any.
> Then when balancing the tire/rim assembly, if the heavy spot was near
> where the rims heavy spot was,  I broke it down and shifted the tire
> around the rim to get a better (less or no weight) balance.
>
> And when balancing, I hid stick-on  weights behind the webs, almost
> dynamic balancing. I deal now with a "good ol' boy" Rural shop, and
> they mount everything from 8" wheelbarrow tires to 38" Heavy equipment
> tires. Some with tubes and tread liners. They also have a pipe bender
> and custom make duals....you ought to hear my Dakota!
>
> Ray
>
> It's getting time for y'all to be polishing up your rides for the
> Spring Meet! Be there, or be Square!  Ray Jones
>
> On Jan 4, 2005, at 11:02 AM, Warren Anderson wrote:
>
>
>
>
> A couple of years ago I replaced my bias Remington's with
> Diamondback
> radials(had to do this twice as on the first set the whitewalls all
> turned
> brown).  I had ordered them by phone and when they arrived by UPS, I
> threw
> them in my B and headed for the local tire store to have them
> mounted.
>
> Mind
>
> you this was a store called Wheel Works and they were one of many
> stores
>
> of
>
> a large chain of tire stores who you would assume would know
> something
>
> about
>
> tires and TUBES.
>
> We have seen a number of serious problems generated by tire shops.
> Big
> chain
> tire shops and local specialists. One common big mistake they make is
> in the
> use of air tools to reach final wheel fastener torque. With or
> without
> 'Torque Sticks', air wrenches on street driven vehicles cause a lot
> of
> problems. I did notice that the Flagstaff Sam's Club tire shop uses
> manual
> torque wrenches.
>
> A rotating static balance can be accomplished with weights in only
> one
> plain. The dynamic balance is only accomplished with wheel weights in
> two
> planes (when weights are required).
>
> It is good practice to powder (talc and I have used baby powder when
> I
> did
> not have tire talc) the inside of tires when tubes are used. Always
> inflate
> fully and deflate then reinflate to road use pressure.
>
> Tire shops that deal with passenger car tires and truck tires should
> have
> people that can deal with tube tires in an expert manner.
>
> We are not a tire shop but do work with tires like the ones on a
> local
> fleet
> of Hummers http://hummeraffair.com/. The tires are bias ply things
> from
> Mickey Thompson as all radial tire production is supposedly going to
> Iraq.
> Run flats for these vehicles are GREASE lubricated between the outer
> and
> inners. These we will not be working with; one very good man, one
> hard, full
> day to change out four tires we have been told.
>
> Warren Anderson
> Sedona,AZ
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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