Re: [Chrysler300] Drivability Problems Related To Ethanol?

[Tony Rinaldi <awrdoc@xxxxxxxxx>]

Hi John,

All of what you say makes sense.

The reason that I was reluctant to share this with the group is that it
counter intuitive. I knew that it would be tough for some to think outside
the box.

It flies against everything that you have learned and have been used to.

I only made the point that ethanol is used to increase octane because Ray
Jones posted that it has less octane.

_________________________________________________________________

³I don't  believe that the alcohol raises  the octane.²
³Bottom  line is that when you burn anything you get X amount  of BTU's
out of a given amount of fuel. And when you cut the Gas by 10% by
adding Ethanol, you cut the octane, period.²

_________________________________________________________________


Obviously, if ethanol is used to get to 93, then it is 93 but it does not
act the same way as 93 without ethanol at extremes of temperature!

You are not doing your timing (by ear) at the high temperatures that we are
talking about and can¹t duplicate those conditions.

Tom White explained why this phenomena is happening. High volatility and
explosiveness of alcohol at high temperatures AND the opposite with cold
temperatures eg. hard starting in the Winter. No one else could explain what
actually is happening in my car. Don¹t forget that he is the only person to
own a 1958 fuel injected DeSoto Adventurer that runs:

http://chrysler300club.com/jhstuff/fuelie/fuelie.html

__________________________________________________________________

Please keep your concentration on the basic premise of my post.

BOTTOM LINE:

If your car won¹t idle right and/or run hard at high speed during high
ambient temperatures:

ADVANCE the spark.

I can control the spark by turning the dial of the timing control with my
MSD CDI box where the signal to fire is a standard dual point distributor
with no Pertronix unit.

The hotter it gets outside and the more ethanol that is in the gas (93
octane), I have to ADVANCE the spark. The spark is more advanced than when I
ran 94 octane without ethanol.

If your car is running OK when it is hot, you are good RIGHT! Leave it
alone. The old, ain¹t broke, don¹t fix it deal.

Remember that the only difference in the equation is the addition of up to
10% ethanol.

Life was good when I had 94 octane gas without ethanol. Never had to touch
the timing except when I drove from Philadelphia to Charlotte and had to use
93, without ethanol, half way on the trip down. When the car started to buck
at 70, all I had to do was RETARD the spark. Lower octane equals retard the
spark. Now that makes sense! I can always do that, by ear, while driving
down the highway.

Now that fits nicely in the box!

Regards,
Tony



From: <john_nowosacki@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:34:30 -0600
To: <awrdoc@xxxxxxxxx>, <hurst300@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: <hurst300@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, <Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Conversation: [Chrysler300] Drivability Problems Related To Ethanol?
Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] Drivability Problems Related To Ethanol?

 
 
 

How's this for confusing the issue-
I was unaware that Ethanol raises octane, but I believe it is a moot point.

If one pump says 94, and the other says 93, then the one with 94 on it has
higher octane, regardless of the amount of Ethanol.

If there is new gas with 10% ethanol blend, and it is rated at 93 octane,
then that means it was probably about 90 octane when they added the 10%
blend that brought it up to 93.  That is still less than 94, so I would
think it would still not run better with more advance.  The octane number is
the octane number, no matter what the blend.

If 10% Ethanol added to 93 octane gas upped the octane to 95 or 96, you
could bet that the company selling the product would advertise it as 95 or
96 octane and charge for it!

I always set my timing by 'ear' anyway.

Set the timing with your normal choice of fuel, and then go for a drive at
part throttle up a slight incline.  If you hear pinging/predetonation, then
retard the timing and take another test drive.  If you hear no pinging, then
advance the timing and take another test drive.

The most advance you can get without hearing the dreaded pinging is going to
give you the best performance.  It has been my experience that this is
always the case, no matter what the octane or blend of fuel.  The best
performance is always when the timing is as far advanced as you can get it
without the pinging.

In general, the higher the octane, the more advance the motor will take
before the pinging starts.

I have also been told that the best timing can be measured with a vacuum
gauge, and usually occurs when you achieve maximum vacuum at idle, but I
have not tried that method, although it may get you in the ballpark before
you use the 'ear' method.

This is all based on a normal engine without modifications like water or
Nitrous injection, supercharging, turbocharging, etc.

I'd really appreciate hearing if this is somehow flawed theory, because I've
been doing my tune-ups this way for (gulp!) decades (since the 60's when I
couldn't afford a timing light in my teens).  How did I get so old???

John

PS- setting the valves/lifters on a slant six can be done quite nicely with
a matchbook cover, too. :-)

________________________________

From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On Behalf Of Tony Rinaldi
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 11:01 AM
To: Ray Jones
Cc: Ray Jones; Chrysler 300 Club
Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] Drivability Problems Related To Ethanol?

You may not believe that ethanol raises octane, but that is what they say it
does.

Ethanol (ethyl alcohol, grain alcohol): Typically fermented from grain. An
octane 
enhancer added at a rate of up to 10 percent in gasoline. Will increase
octane 
2.5 to 3.0 numbers at 10 percent concentration. Ethanol is a fuel
oxygenate.

Source:
http://www.nwicc.cc.ia.us/pages/continuing/business/ethanol/glossary.htm
<http://www.nwicc.cc.ia.us/pages/continuing/business/ethanol/glossary.htm>

You all may be missing the point, no matter who the manufacturer is, the new
gas is blended with up to 10% ethanol.

When we use it, it seems that we may be missing an important point when
setting up our cars for hot weather.

Maybe our cars will run better with the timing ADVANCED to match up with the
more volatile ethanol mixed in.

My car definitely runs better that way, in hot weather, and with 93
whatever. This is at idle and at higher speeds.

Tony

From: Ray Jones <hurst300@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:hurst300%40voltage.net>
<mailto:hurst300%40voltage.net> >
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 20:29:30 -0500
To: Tony Rinaldi <awrdoc@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:awrdoc%40yahoo.com>
<mailto:awrdoc%40yahoo.com> >
Cc: Ray Jones <hurst300@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:hurst300%40arkansas.net>
<mailto:hurst300%40arkansas.net> >, Chrysler 300 Club
<Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:Chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com> >
Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] Drivability Problems Related To Ethanol?

Tony and all;
I'm sorry, I don't believe that the alcohol raises the octane. If it
did, it would be Sunoco 95 or something.
It does burn hotter, which is why alcohol fueled engines have
everything in the combustion chamber chromed, to withstand the heat. It
doesn't help gas much tho.
Bottom line is that when you burn anything you get X amount of BTU's
out of a given amount of fuel. And when you cut the Gas by 10% by
adding Ethanol, you cut the octane, period.
We are paying more for less and having to buy more to go the same
distance, period.
So, in our high performance engines, we just aren't getting the power
(BTU's) we once did. It's just that simple.
You must compensate for the crap we are getting, being sold as gas.
I'm sure this will start arguments, but you can't get out more than you
put in, basic physics.
Ray

On Aug 19, 2007, at 1:07 PM, Tony Rinaldi wrote:

I asked the question from many people:

Why do I have to advance the spark with this new lower octane fuel?

Did not get a reasonable answer, until I asked Thomas White from
Whitehall
Restoration (Hopkinton, MA) when I met him at Carlisle last summer.

He said that the increased alcohol had higher octane and was more
volatile.
The new gas burns hotter in hot weather and would do the opposite in
cold
weather.

So, there it is. Maybe if your car is running like crap, in hot
weather,
when it never happened before:

ADVANCE the timing??

You all play nice now.

Regards,
Tony Rinaldi

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