Re: [Chrysler300] Drivability Problems Related To Ethanol?

["George Riehl" <longrams@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi John;  Some time ago I wrote on the listserver about gasoline and ethanol. I was Operations/Plant Manager for an independent fuel supply co. in Ann Arbor, MI. We owned 28 company stations that we supplied fuel to. Ethanol was added to our fuel at the rate of 10 - 12%. I became well educated in the fuel business! And what profits were to be made.
Ethanol was added to the lower grade of gas, 85 octane. 10% upgraded to 87 octane, and so on.
Ethanol burns at a slower rate than gas. It also helps to add oxygen. Lower octane gas "burns" at a faster rate. Higher octane "burns" at a slower rate.  Hence, resetting the timing is needed for the different fuels. Thruout the U.S., thru summer and winter, north and south U.S., there are about 38 different formulas of gasoline. Gas formulas are different for low and high altitudes. New Mexico gas does not burn well in Denver, CO. and vice versa. 
  Our cars that sit for long periods of time, 3 + months, the ethanol seperates from the gas. Gas "floats" on top of ethanol. Specific gravity is different, like water and oil. When starting the engine, it will run for a short time then quit! Ethanol is now in the carb. because it on the bottom of the tank!
Whenever I go to start my cars, I shake the rear of the car to "remix" the two components. Then I can start it with the proper mixture. Todays gas does evaporate at a quicker rate. That is another problem that I won't get into, I think everyone knows this.

One other problem is with the gas stations themselves. Putting the fuel in their underground srorage tanks, they must have a "recirculation" system to keep the gas and ethanol mixed properly. Most of us should know, that, when we pull into a station that is getting fuel from a tanker, pass it by. The induction of "new" fuel churns up the sediment and water in the bottom of the tank.  How may of us got gas that way and had the engine quit after a few miles? Plugged fuel filter. Happened to me many times. Unfortunately, I need gas very badly and took a chance. I lost! Best chance for good fuel is at truck stops. High volume gallonage.  Off brand stations may not give the quality of gas you think you are getting. Ever hear of "wash gas"? It is cheap to buy by the tanker load. "Wash gas" is used to clean the the petroleum pipe lines. It is not discarded, there is a market for it. Many of us have put it into our tanks. That's another story.
  The 50's and 60's had GOOD gas. Those were the days. I can remember $.189 gas! Two bucks worth would give a good nites cruisin' and get you back home. In your "older" car, remember buying "drain oil" at $.15 quart? Recapped tires at $10.-15.00! THE GOOD OLD DAYS!
   George Riehl






  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: john_nowosacki@xxxxxxxxxxx 
  To: awrdoc@xxxxxxxxx ; hurst300@xxxxxxxxxxx 
  Cc: hurst300@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 4:34 PM
  Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] Drivability Problems Related To Ethanol?


  How's this for confusing the issue-
  I was unaware that Ethanol raises octane, but I believe it is a moot point.

  If one pump says 94, and the other says 93, then the one with 94 on it has higher octane, regardless of the amount of Ethanol.

  If there is new gas with 10% ethanol blend, and it is rated at 93 octane, then that means it was probably about 90 octane when they added the 10% blend that brought it up to 93. That is still less than 94, so I would think it would still not run better with more advance. The octane number is the octane number, no matter what the blend.

  If 10% Ethanol added to 93 octane gas upped the octane to 95 or 96, you could bet that the company selling the product would advertise it as 95 or 96 octane and charge for it!

  I always set my timing by 'ear' anyway.

  Set the timing with your normal choice of fuel, and then go for a drive at part throttle up a slight incline. If you hear pinging/predetonation, then retard the timing and take another test drive. If you hear no pinging, then advance the timing and take another test drive. 

  The most advance you can get without hearing the dreaded pinging is going to give you the best performance. It has been my experience that this is always the case, no matter what the octane or blend of fuel. The best performance is always when the timing is as far advanced as you can get it without the pinging.

  In general, the higher the octane, the more advance the motor will take before the pinging starts.

  I have also been told that the best timing can be measured with a vacuum gauge, and usually occurs when you achieve maximum vacuum at idle, but I have not tried that method, although it may get you in the ballpark before you use the 'ear' method. 

  This is all based on a normal engine without modifications like water or Nitrous injection, supercharging, turbocharging, etc.

  I'd really appreciate hearing if this is somehow flawed theory, because I've been doing my tune-ups this way for (gulp!) decades (since the 60's when I couldn't afford a timing light in my teens). How did I get so old???

  John

  PS- setting the valves/lifters on a slant six can be done quite nicely with a matchbook cover, too. :-)

  ________________________________

  From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tony Rinaldi
  Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 11:01 AM
  To: Ray Jones
  Cc: Ray Jones; Chrysler 300 Club
  Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] Drivability Problems Related To Ethanol?

  You may not believe that ethanol raises octane, but that is what they say it
  does.

  Ethanol (ethyl alcohol, grain alcohol): Typically fermented from grain. An
  octane 
  enhancer added at a rate of up to 10 percent in gasoline. Will increase
  octane 
  2.5 to 3.0 numbers at 10 percent concentration. Ethanol is a fuel
  oxygenate.

  Source:
  http://www.nwicc.cc.ia.us/pages/continuing/business/ethanol/glossary.htm <http://www.nwicc.cc.ia.us/pages/continuing/business/ethanol/glossary.htm> 

  You all may be missing the point, no matter who the manufacturer is, the new
  gas is blended with up to 10% ethanol.

  When we use it, it seems that we may be missing an important point when
  setting up our cars for hot weather.

  Maybe our cars will run better with the timing ADVANCED to match up with the
  more volatile ethanol mixed in.

  My car definitely runs better that way, in hot weather, and with 93
  whatever. This is at idle and at higher speeds.

  Tony

  From: Ray Jones <hurst300@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:hurst300%40voltage.net> >
  Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 20:29:30 -0500
  To: Tony Rinaldi <awrdoc@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:awrdoc%40yahoo.com> >
  Cc: Ray Jones <hurst300@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:hurst300%40arkansas.net> >, Chrysler 300 Club
  <Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com> >
  Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] Drivability Problems Related To Ethanol?

  Tony and all;
  I'm sorry, I don't believe that the alcohol raises the octane. If it
  did, it would be Sunoco 95 or something.
  It does burn hotter, which is why alcohol fueled engines have
  everything in the combustion chamber chromed, to withstand the heat. It
  doesn't help gas much tho.
  Bottom line is that when you burn anything you get X amount of BTU's
  out of a given amount of fuel. And when you cut the Gas by 10% by
  adding Ethanol, you cut the octane, period.
  We are paying more for less and having to buy more to go the same
  distance, period.
  So, in our high performance engines, we just aren't getting the power
  (BTU's) we once did. It's just that simple.
  You must compensate for the crap we are getting, being sold as gas.
  I'm sure this will start arguments, but you can't get out more than you
  put in, basic physics.
  Ray

  On Aug 19, 2007, at 1:07 PM, Tony Rinaldi wrote:

  I asked the question from many people:

  Why do I have to advance the spark with this new lower octane fuel?

  Did not get a reasonable answer, until I asked Thomas White from
  Whitehall
  Restoration (Hopkinton, MA) when I met him at Carlisle last summer.

  He said that the increased alcohol had higher octane and was more
  volatile.
  The new gas burns hotter in hot weather and would do the opposite in
  cold
  weather.

  So, there it is. Maybe if your car is running like crap, in hot
  weather,
  when it never happened before:

  ADVANCE the timing??

  You all play nice now.

  Regards,
  Tony Rinaldi

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