Re: [Chrysler300] Whoa, Nellie(with a proportioning valve)

[Hi Tech Auto Parts <htap@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

I did a brake o/haul on my 300F 8 yrs ago,6 new w/cyls-matched brand name,flexable hoses,dressed drums with o/s linings,spent the time checking shoe alignment in the backing retaining plates,and correct adjustment and have had perfect brakes to this day,pull straight every time,car can sit for 6 months and first use will still brake straight and has always had a good pedal.How ever heavy hill work and hard consistant braking will induce fade,typical for drums,but normal driving will not create this problem.Braking was reasonable on these brutes back in 1960 and still is in 2012.I find the orig drum brakes work well for everyday driving on all my early chryslers with out opting to discs.
                    Geoff.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rich Barber 
  To: 'christopher beilby' ; 'Brisbane 300C Schleimer' ; cv300g@xxxxxxxxx ; chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; larry@xxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 8:17 AM
  Subject: [Chrysler300] Whoa, Nellie(with a proportioning valve)


    
  Always interesting to read Christopher's posts. Regarding, lost pressure
  due to rubber hose expansion--the whole idea of hydraulic brakes is to
  provide equal pressure everywhere in the system. Proportioning valves are
  apparently just restrictors to create a temporary and dynamic lower pressure
  on (typically) the back brakes. As there is some small flow of hydraulic
  fluid on application of the brakes, all tubing, fittings and hoses create a
  restriction to flow. Rubber hoses are always reinforced, so swelling under
  pressure would be minimal. But, over time, the ID of hydraulic hose could
  conceivably shrink due to rubber swelling and create a significant
  restriction.

  Remember, braking is accomplished by converting kinetic (moving) energy to
  heat energy by the process of friction. Front-rear balance is achieved by
  varying hydraulic pressure and heat transfer rates. More sophisticated ABS
  systems further achieve balance by temporarily and intermittently reducing
  and pulsing hydraulic pressure to a skidding wheel.

  I don't see any significant difference in moving the two pitons in a single
  wheel cylinder when compared to the two pistons in two pistons in two
  separate wheel cylinders in the old MoPars--unless the shoes are improperly
  adjusted. One always notices the difference in brake pedal travel when the
  brake shoes are properly adjusted.

  I was taught how to adjust brakes on MoPars in the mid-50's and recall it
  took extra effort, care and experience to get it right. In some ways, they
  were easier to adjust than rotating the stars on the single-wheel cylinder
  brakes. These old skills are being lost as the old line mechanics retire to
  their garages to work on their old 300's. Sometimes, real friendship,
  respect and a six pack will encourage one of these guys to get out and get
  under. Watch & learn.

  I find it interesting that my '64K ram car has the optional 3" wide rear
  drums to achieve some additional braking capacity. I'm wondering just how
  much additional resistance to fade or 60-0 stopping distance that actually
  accomplished, given that the back brakes do such a small amount of braking
  in a front-engine car. I do recall that my VW's and Corvairs had much
  larger brakes on the rear wheels.

  Rich Barber (Bloody Yanks can ramble, also)

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
  Behalf Of christopher beilby
  Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 6:24 AM
  To: Brisbane 300C Schleimer; cv300g@xxxxxxxxx; chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
  larry@xxxxxxxxxx
  Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] 1958 300D Brake shoe lining

  1) Henry has thrown a bit more lght on the oddities of Chrysler front brakes
  that use two wheel cylinders per wheel. Most other drum brakes used only one
  cylinder - that is why on those types/them, the 'leading' brake lining
  should always be shorter than the 'trailing' one - as explained just
  earlier, the leading one gets sort of 'sucked on', once it contacts the
  drum, whereas the trailing one never does, and has to be pushed hard all the
  way/time to get same result.

  To overcome this 'single wheel cylinder' activating two linings with unequal
  application, Chrysler, and for one other, Austin Healey, used two wheel
  cylinders - directly opposite each other, and in this case, BOTH LININGS
  SHOULD BE SAME LENGTH - as then both will give equal stopping force/power. (
  Twin cylinders were more expensive, so usually only used on higher
  performance/sports models, before disc brakes replaced all drum types.)
  (Rear brakes being single piston - shorter lining on front, but oddly
  Chrysler looks like 'factory', both were same length!!?? And another Mopar
  'oddity', adjust two front brake adjuster cams different way on fronts,
  versus way you turn the rear adjusters .)

  2) Please read this bit if not already bored to death about 300 Brakes!!?
  And this brings me to another 'thought' as to why many 300 restorers have
  trouble with poor Mopar/Chrysler late 50s early 60s brakes - AND THIS IS
  JUST A/MY THEORY - SHOOT ME DOWN IF YOU HAVE BETTER IDEAS/THOUGHTS???

  Critical to good/sound operation in restoring these twin cylinder per front
  wheel brakes, is likely the only thing that might be different today to how
  Chrysler made them ?! ANY IDEAS WHY THEY ARE SO BAD TODAY !!??
  Well my 'thought' is because there are 4 front wheel cylinders, plus 2 rear,
  any 'lost pressure', is multipled way beyond most other cars that only have
  total of 4 cylinders ??!! Guess where I am going? I have a 300C that has
  bloody brilliant brakes - rebuilt about 1982. And the flexible brake hoses
  were OEM, not modern day 'often not made in USA'.
  There are 3 flexible/rubber hoses per Chrysler. I recently bought a 6
  cylinder 1978 Honda Motorcycle - briefly fastest bike sold. But brakes were
  soon criticised. Locally there is a guy who knows, has ridden, near every
  sport/race motorcycle since. He says, brakes on CBX Honda are OK IF YOU FIT
  BRAIDED (stainless) LINES instead of original flexible rubber ones. This
  stops lost force/application, lost due to rubber hoses swelling.
  Others may remember me earlier saying I helped a friend on his '60 Imperial
  Convert - all new brakes, but at the time, the only way could get good
  pedal, was when we clamped off flexible front brake hoses - so is my Honda
  CBX loving 'guru' on the right thought/track, re why so many Chrysler/Mopar
  brake restos disappoint - DID CHRYSLER HAVE REAL HIGH SPEC OEM FLEXIBLE
  HOSES - hoses that had zero internal swelling, unlike ones now that see
  pedals go down alarmingly, give poor stopping power??
  Another friend's '63 Imperial convert has brillian pedal, bleed up instantly
  after master cylinder lost fluid - looking underneath, all flexible hoses
  look like never changed, or if they were, it way back years ago - brakes are
  great from 70 mph panic test stops.

  So over to you '300 twin piston brakes experts' - does the fact that in
  having to apply/move 6 cylinders in stead of usual 4, make 'zero swelling'
  flexible hoses super criticial/essential??!! - (a) can my 300Cs excellent
  brakes only be explained due to OEM style 'non swelling' flexible hoses, and
  (b) have any overseas/US 300 owners tried braided stainless flexible hoses
  before going to disc brake conversions in despair?
  (These 300 brakes were not written up as useless/hopeless new, and magazine
  road testers in those days drove in 'near speed limitless' days then !!??)
  Does anyone know a brake hose manufacturer that can throw more light on the
  topic?

  Christopher in Australia 
  Local TV tonight warned viewers to expect gas prices for Easter to bo over
  $8 a gal for premium - and this for a country where a drive to any other
  nearest major City is usually 450-600 miles.
  Got colour/paint back on my driver 300C yesterday - questions I asked re
  repaintiing it have following answers (1) OEM aerial has rubber type top
  piece that has hidden threaded nut under it (2) fuzzies that sit against
  side window glass are retained by metal spring clips that go into matched
  rectangular slots (that have rounded ends) - not sure yet if exact same
  fuzzies with exact same spaced clips are available.

  AND FINAL NOTE FOR 300C/D restorers/users - my 300C rear side windows that
  were near totally seized, non 'up or down' without help -- PROBLEM WAS NOT
  POWER MOTOR OR GEARBOX - LUBE THE TWO RUNNERS, AND ALSO LUBE THE SLOT TYPE
  CENTRE LOCATER, RUNNER. Manually work/help glass up and down maybe 10-20
  times, and now they go up and down like supercharged - amazing. 

  Fixed in about 15 mins once side trims removed so could put lube on runners
  wherever one can reach when in up and down positions to get the most on
  everywhere


  To: cv300g@xxxxxxxxx; Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; larry@xxxxxxxxxx
  From: henry.schleimer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
  Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:06:23 +1000
  Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] 1958 300D Brake shoe lining

  Note that for the 57 models, the front brakes have two leading shoes. That
  is, both get pulled into the drum with the car going forward. It doesn't
  matter that one is upside down. The rear has leading and trailing shoes.
  This gives more braking torque on the front than rear, as it is needed.
  Later cars with leading/trailing shoes on the front and rear generally used
  different sized wheel cylinders (or drums) to give the necessary brake
  balance. Also note the 57 Chrysler workshop manual clearly shoes all shoes
  front and rear have a full length lining. You could probably get away with a
  shorter lining on the rear of the rear brake but I wouldn't do that on the
  front as they may get hot at different rates leading to earlier fade.
  Suggest you look up a 58 manual to check.

  Regards

  Henry

  From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
  Behalf Of Charlie V
  Sent: Wednesday, 21 March 2012 6:20 AM
  To: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; Larry Jabin
  Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] 1958 300D Brake shoe lining

  Not sure if 1958 shoes are any different but whenever I purchased brakes
  shoes the set usually had two shoes with the lining on the Whole shoe and it
  also had two shoes with the lining ending an inch or so before each end of
  the shoe.

  The shoe with the shorter lining goes on the front half and the shoe that
  has Full lining goes on the rear half. I did an internet search to verify
  this and it's shown below.

  Where does the bigger size brake shoe go front or rear in drum?

  The smaller shoe should go on the front. The larger shoe should go to the
  rear, but not because of why you might think! 

  When the brakes are applied the front shoe tries to jam itself into the
  brake drum. It is that front cohesive part that has the strongest braking
  force - pressing most-so upon the forward-facing shoe. However, even though
  the front shoe is where the majority of braking force is applied, it does
  not get the larger shoe! 

  As noted, in a braking mode, the majority of the force that the decelerating
  vehicle applies to the brake shoes is applied against the forward shoe by
  the forward-most area of the inner brake drum, this makes the forward shoe
  the stronger, braking-wise. To help even things out, the rear secondary shoe
  is designed to be larger, to more equally match the braking power of the
  smaller, but more powerful front primary shoe.
  Ergo: The proper place for the larger shoe is to the rear.

  Lion Charlie Valentine
  300G, 1962 300 Sport Convertible 

  --- On Sun, 3/18/12, Larry Jabin <larry@xxxxxxxxxx
  <mailto:larry%40pwbsfo.com> > wrote:

  From: Larry Jabin <larry@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:larry%40pwbsfo.com> >
  Subject: [Chrysler300] 1958 300D Brake shoe lining
  To: "Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com> "
  <Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Chrysler300%40yahoogroups.com> >
  Date: Sunday, March 18, 2012, 12:37 PM

  Could someone tell me when relining the brake Shoes

  Should the lining cover the whole shoe?

  The reason I ask I,s I have purchased re-lined shoes from different
  suppliers

  From one supplier the lining covers the shoes completely & the other there
  is almost an inch at each end with no lining

  Thanks

  Larry Jabin

  Larry@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Larry%40pwbsfo.com> <mailto:Larry@xxxxxxxxxx
  <mailto:Larry%40pwbsfo.com> >

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