RE: [Chrysler300] 413 motor I/d help

["'John Grady' jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [Chrysler300]" <Chrysler300-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

There is some significant confusion in all that, but end result is about
right. The cast iron torque flight has no flex plate, so crank changes etc
obviously track that sort of; 61 and back, 62 and up. Guy in Vermont that
makes 727 to 392 adapter has info there. More stuff too, diameter of alloy
TF input shafts, spline counts, converter pilot diameters, brake drums
etc. I do not now all that off top of head .It is not 8 vs six bolts only,
plus later hemi had 8 bolts I think with flex plate . Spacer on back of
engine or not. 

 

62 -63 727 TF push button  intact to later B block is easiest way to go but
you get into park lever then. Enough from me!

 

From: christopher [mailto:thelastbestgenius@xxxxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 5:21 PM
To: John Grady; 300C bought in bits; 'Richard Osborne'; c300@xxxxxxx
Cc: 'Michael Moore'; 'Robert Merritt'; jsnowosacki@xxxxxxxxx; 'Rick Vitek';
Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] 413 motor I/d help

 

Thank you to all that replied re Motorhome 413 motors and alloy case trans
attached to it/them.
 
I was originally trying to keep the original '59 Dodge push button set up,
and use a trans that had the late 50s 8 bolt crank to convertor pattern, as
I found later 383s etc used a 6 bolt pattern, and therefore if I used a
later 383, I could not bolt it up to a handbrake drum type torqueflight.
 
So thanks to all those that replied, I now know later build Motorhome 413s
use totally different heads (angled plugs etc), plus visibly have a
huge/ugly water pump set up on front of engine, and yes the exhaust
manifolds are clearly different - look better than later 283/440, but cannot
be used a higher comp non motorhome heads.
But it seems the alloy case torqueflight is a possible 'mate - bolt up' - to
the later 60s 6 bolt 383/440 crankshaft/motor? (383 started 1959 (as per my
Dodge) as an 8 bolt crank pattern, then in mid/late 60s? went to 6 bolt
pattern) - and if that is true, it gives us early 300 owners a way to use
the later/lighter alloy case 727 torqueflights in our early 300s - BUT ONLY
IF USING THE early(late 50s into early 60s)/hemi 8 bolt convertors, which I
guess might only be found in first alloy case torqueflights - used maybe
about only 2 years?
So it likely easier just to use a whole early 60s alloy case 727
Toprqueflight that still had handbrake on rear, and totally forget Motorhome
one - only advantage with motorhome one is having later/standard slip yoke
tailshaft end/driveshaft?
 
If any of all this has been helpful to 300/413 equipped 300 owners, then we
all now know a bit more,
 
thanks to all from early autumn Australia,
 
Christopher
 

  _____  

To: d.verity@xxxxxxx; reomotorsports1@xxxxxx; c300@xxxxxxx
CC: mmoore8425@xxxxxxx; okbobwynmer@xxxxxxxxx; jsnowosacki@xxxxxxxxx;
rpvitek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; thelastbestgenius@xxxxxxxxxxx;
Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: Chrysler300-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 14:05:16 -0500
Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] 413 motor I/d help

  

Agree with Don; there were special steam vents around ,next to, or over the
plug or exhaust valve locations, matching holes in motorhome block ???. I
think I remember a special head gasket; if you use wrong , common one it
blocks them, no end of trouble. Regular 440 heads apparently pressurize
cooling system by boiling locally at those locations under heavy continuous
loads, even though radiator temp is not that high = loss of coolant .Memory
vague on this.

 

My main reason for writing on this is the mention of 727 TF with E brake on
a 70 ;(70!!!) Working with J-Y , and a motor home guy he knew, we found out
that "Winnebago" used a 727 / E Brake drum setup---but unsure of years or
models.  ;  it has 4 bolts , not Detroit U joint junk, that mating part to
it on a Winnebago mounts a regular big Spicer U joint to TF with E brake, ?
same TF brake  also used in 300's 62-63 era . We went so far as to copy one
of those in a steel billet, never could find that part. ; Later I found out
that Denny's driveshaft has that part , ( you must specify exact bolt
pattern) lets you get rid of Detroit U joint for good.  You then have a
truck type slide spline in driveshaft proper . J-Y and I have done 3 of
these now, problems gone. And a way to get 727 into a pre 62, if so inclined
, keeping 300 rear axle, trans e brake. 

 

Other way is ~70 Challenger 8 3/4 axle swap into 300 , also fits , 60 for
sure , gets the back  wheel E brakes , allows use of later 727 w or w/o e
brake 

 

john

 

From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of 'Don Verity' d.verity@xxxxxxx [Chrysler300]
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 10:17 AM
To: Richard Osborne; Rich Barber
Cc: Michael Moore; Robert Merritt; John Nowosacki; Rick Vitek; christopher;
Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] 413 motor I/d help

 





 

Here is the response I sent to Chris regarding the motor home 413.

Don

I have a motor home 413, and it is quite different than a passenger car
model. It would be considered the industrial version. The block is mostly
the same, except for lower compression. They had a double roller timing
chain also. The heads were completely different. They have additional water
outlets on the front that attach to a huge water pump housing. The spark
plug location is also different, it looks more like a small block set up.
The valves also use rotators in the retainers to promote even wear. The
exhaust manifolds are also special with a header like appearance and a 4
bolt flange on the end. They will not bolt to anything but the motor home
head. Not a real desirable engine for a car unless you are going to just use
the block and use some kind of boost. I'm going to use this block in my E
which had a McCullooch supercharger installed when new at the dealer level.
Mine is a 1970 version, and had the aluminum TF with the brake on the back. 

 

  

I had hardend valve seats installed in my G when the engine was overhauled
10 years or so ago. They had no problem machining the valve pockets to
accept the new seats. 

 

I would be surprised if there was a significant difference in the casting
for the truck 413 head vs the car casting.

 

I will say that when I worked in one of the nations largest CPD parts
dealerships (late '80's), we actually kept 413 motorhome exhaust manifolds
in stock as they sold well, cracking was a big problem.

 

 

On Mar 2, 2015, at 5:37 PM, 'Rich Barber' c300@xxxxxxx [Chrysler300]
<Chrysler300-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

 

 

I read somewhere that it is risky to machine the heads in my ram K engine
for hard seat inserts as there is not much "meat" under the lip and one
might cut into the coolant passage.  Any truth in that? 

The RV/truck engine would have a much different cam/carb/distributor advance
configuration for high torque at low RPM and might be more susceptible to
higher operating temperatures for long periods of time. 

Most of the heat from the valve heads can only flow to the coolant while the
valve is closed and sitting on the seat.  Testing in the engine lab helped
define the need for different construction and coolant flow for different
conditions.  Nowadaze, this is all modeled on a computer which tends to
produce pretty good results, I believe.

C300K'ly,

Rich Barber

Brentwood, CA

From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Michael Mooremmoore8425@xxxxxxx [Chrysler300]
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 1:57 PM
To: Robert Merritt
Cc: John Nowosacki; Rick Vitek; christopher; <Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] 413 motor I/d help

Years ago when I experience my valve recession problem on my 300H with a
fresh engine, the machine shop in Portland  Oregon who put hgardened seats
in my heads tried to convince me that I needed motorhome engine heads
because they were cooled much better . I resistedbut have always wondered
what THAT story was.

Mike Moore

300H 

On Mar 2, 2015, at 1:08 PM, Robert Merritt okbobwynmer@xxxxxxxxx
[Chrysler300] <Chrysler300-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Caution!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

413 Truck engines are not the same as 413 car engines.

At least in the larger trucks, they have timing gears instead of chain,
which means the cam and distributor turn backwards to car engines, and there
are also oth er differences in push-rods, etc..

I once knew a shop that tried to install a car short block in a 2-ton farm
truck, and couldn't get it to run. I shared both a car and truck shop manual
with them and we finally got it figured out.

I believe we ended up using a set of adjustable push-rods and a car
distributor, but that has been 20+ years ago, so I may be wrong.

It was just before harvest, and the farmer having the work done was frantic
to get it going.

Bob Merritt

North central Oklahoma

!965 barn-stored 300-L and parts car

On Monday, March 2, 2015 12:04 PM, "John Nowosacki jsnowosacki@xxxxxxxxx
[Chrysler300]" <Chrysler300-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I think there were also differences in the water pump/cooling/intake/heads
on the motor home engines.  The heads look like big block heads, but have
slanted spark plugs like a 318 or 340.

Water pump housing on front of motor was different, too.  I used to have a
set of heads, but couldn't even give them away at Carlisle.

Sent from my iPhone


On Mar 2, 2015, at 12:52 PM, 'Rick Vitek' rpvitek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[Chrysler300] <Chrysler300-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/
<http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/motor/36.html> motor/36.html will
provide you most of the info you are looking for. Production of the RB
engines ceased in 1978 (I believe). 413's were made up to the end for
truck/motorhome/industrial use. The first two digits of the displacement
were used up to 1965 when three digits were used. So 41 suggests a pre '65
413. But it should have a letter before the 41(3) to denote year (see
webpage linked above). See also the block casting number to narrow down year
range. The "E" after the number may refer to a cast crankshaft.

Blocks should be the same internally. Heads used vary. Here are some sample
numbers for later production 413's.

2899 913

60-71 413 Truck

2899 943

71-77 361 Truck / 413

Once you narrow down year/application you can look up spec's such as
horsepower, cr, etc.

From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of christopher thelastbestgenius@xxxxxxxxxxx [Chrysler300]
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 7:09 AM
To: 
Subject: [Chrysler300] 413 motor I/d help

Chrysler 300F and Gs used 413s - very briefly, and maybe just offlist
replies back to me - how similar were 413s used in motorhomes - re
good/same heads etc? 
- and until what year were 413s built/used in say motorhomes?
Were the motorhome ones a much lower power/specs?!

The motor I am looking at apparently has prefixe "E'" stamped after "41"
stamping on pad atop block, and has an alloy case auto trans bolted up, but
trans still has handbrake on rear - alloy case is all one piece like later
727 torqueflights. I am looking at putting it in my '59 Dodge 2 dr - sump I
need to do that has deep rear, whereas the 413 has the deep part of sump pan
at front where it will foul the xmember - do the 300F/G have deep rear or
deep front sumps?

Christopher in Australia 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

 





 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------
Posted by: "John Grady" <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
------------------------------------

To send a message to this group, send an email to:
Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx or
go to https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/all/manage/edit

For list server instructions, go to http://www.chrysler300club.com/yahoolist/inst.htm

For archives go to http://www.forwardlook.net/300-archive/search.htm#querylang
------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Chrysler300/

<*> Your email settings:
    Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Chrysler300/join
    (Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
    Chrysler300-digest@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
    Chrysler300-fullfeatured@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    Chrysler300-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:
    https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/